How did you get past NuKirk's rise to command?

[Christopher]

Nothing wrong with saving a "primitive" planet as long as you do it discreetly, and don't set yourself as gods or emperors afterwards, or provide advanced tech to cultures that aren't ready for it yet.

The TOS version of the PD is more of an anti-imperialist thing than a strict "hands-off" policy where strange new worlds and civilizations are concerned.

Or, to borrow a line from Futurama, "When you do things right, people won't be sure you did anything at all."

That's the Lloyd Biggle, Jr. version of the Prime Directive. Biggle was a science fiction/mystery author, mainly active from the '50s through the '70s, who wrote a number of stories about an organization whose version of the "non-interference policy" was that you should interfere to guide other planets toward a more mature civilization, but you had to do it subtly and in secret so that they didn't realize you were doing it. Which is also basically the Gary Seven approach.

Although that's still quite problematical -- who are we to assume that our form of civilization and progress is right for another species, and what gives us the right to manipulate them into developing the way we want? Saving them from disaster is one thing, but "guiding" them to be more like us is still deeply imperialistic, no matter how secretly it's done.

 

[fireproof78]

What I thought was ridiculous was the way Kirk was demoted to cadet, promoted back to first officer and then back to Captain in the space of what....10 minutes in STID?

"Cadet" is a position, not a rank. Rank-wise, Kirk was demoted to Commander, then back up to Captain (within 24-48hrs, in-universe)

Yes. Kirk was sent back to the Academy. In what capacity, we are not told. For all we know, this is when he would become an instructor and demonstrate competence at that level before being allowed back in the field.

Also, Pike pulled strings for him to become his XO, but that is not necessarily a "promotion" in rank, just in position.

Finally, Admiral Marcus did not make Kirk captain of the Enterprise out of any sense of merit or earning potential. Kirk was the fall guy for the war with the Klingons.

All of the above are legitimate and realistic, in-universe, reasons for Kirk's changes in ID.

In Trek 09, the whole of Kirk's promotion has to start with the cadet position. In Starfleet, cadet is not a rank, but a position. Saavik was a cadet, but referred to "Lieutenant" throughout TWOK. She kept that rank through TSFS, so it clearly was not honorary. So, it isn't a stretch, for me, that Kirk would be a lieutenant. I think someone else may have pointed this out, but he may have received a field promotion to Lt. Commander by Pike making him XO. It's still a jump but going from that to Captain makes some sense given the severity of the circumstances.

 

[MarsWeeps]

I doubt Spock thought saving the planet broke the PD. Maybe he's wrong, maybe he's right. But I'll assume he knows the rules. Unless he's twisting the rules and is putting a weird Vulcan slant on them.

I think that's exactly what he did.

The TOS PD allows you to save/investigate primitive planets if the population doesn't see your other world/superior technology.

Well, Pike didn't see it that way. A few of his lines:

"Starfleet's mandate is to explore and observe, not to interfere."

"You were supposed to survey a planet, not alter its destiny!"

So Pike is basically telling them that they should have let the volcano erupt, implying that they did violate the Prime Directive by stopping it. Also, while Kirk was demoted, Spock did get transferred to another ship. While no explanation is given, I think it was a type of reprimand. Pike took over the Enterprise so why not keep Spock? Maybe he was transferred to a garbage scow.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

So its the natives seeing the Enterprise, or the lying on the report which may have led to Kirk's demotion IMO. If it was the saving the primitive planet thing then I think that Pike would have just stopped it there and asked Kirk and Spock why they did that and not gone on about the lying in the report.

That's my take on it, too.

Nothing wrong with saving a "primitive" planet as long as you do it discreetly, and don't set yourself as gods or emperors afterwards, or provide advanced tech to cultures that aren't ready for it yet.

Except Pike pretty much said saving the planet was also violating it and Spock's argument was just a technicality. So not it was the whole thing Kirk was getting chewed out for not just the saving Spock part.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Considering how many years the TNG crew were together in the same jobs (with only a very few changes that were un-changed whenever they needed Worf back for the next movie), a few years for nuKirk to grow up and out of his Frat Boy persona would be as nothing. And maybe nuUhura would have learned some professionalism, too.

If she was a real person, "professionalism" would be a plus. As a character in a movie its better for the drama that she has scenes that are well, dramatic.

That scene in the shuttle that basically added up to "Shut up, Captain, while I'm whining at my boyfriend while on duty" was pure soap opera with a side order of bad sitcom. If I wanted that, I'd watch a soap where this kind of nonsense is a normal part of the genre.

I think you can whine about your boyfriend in Science Fiction. Nothing in the genre prevents it. I think they call it "character bits" in most fiction forms. You can also whine about technology, your co workers and any other thing that annoys you while on duty. Again "character bits".

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Pike took over the Enterprise so why not keep Spock? Maybe he was transferred to a garbage scow.

Considering his new posting was important enough to be included in the blockade the planet and stop "Harrison" briefing it probably wasn't.

 

[fireproof78]

I doubt Spock thought saving the planet broke the PD. Maybe he's wrong, maybe he's right. But I'll assume he knows the rules. Unless he's twisting the rules and is putting a weird Vulcan slant on them.

I think that's exactly what he did.

The TOS PD allows you to save/investigate primitive planets if the population doesn't see your other world/superior technology.

Well, Pike didn't see it that way. A few of his lines:

"Starfleet's mandate is to explore and observe, not to interfere."

"You were supposed to survey a planet, not alter its destiny!"

So Pike is basically telling them that they should have left the volcano erupt, implying that they did violate the Prime Directive by stopping it. Also, while Kirk was demoted, Spock did get transferred to another ship. While no explanation is given, I think it was a type of reprimand. Pike took over the Enterprise so why not keep Spock? Maybe he was transferred to a garbage scow.

Well, given that the Captain of the Bradbury attended the senior officer's conference after Harrison's attack, I think we can safely guess that it isn't a garbage scow

 

[shapeshifter]

Not much more to say than has already been said but,

The thing I enjoyed most about TOS is how they tried to be consistent, as far as possible, with reality.

There's your problem, you are still worshiping Trek for it's apparent consistency. Nothing wrong with that but it is all an illusion.

I had Star Trek on a mile high pedestal for decades before my rose colored glasses finally began to dim concerning the show.

I still love it but I have finally developed a callous which keeps me from getting bent out of shape over minutia. Try to relax, everything is going to be fine.

Now the design of the NuEnterprise is another matter. Of all the bleepety-bleep-bleep designs they could come up with they choose that? Bleeeeeeeep!!111!

lol

 

[BillJ]

Well, Pike didn't see it that way. A few of his lines:

"Starfleet's mandate is to explore and observe, not to interfere."

"You were supposed to survey a planet, not alter its destiny!"

So Pike is basically telling them that they should have let the volcano erupt, implying that they did violate the Prime Directive by stopping it. Also, while Kirk was demoted, Spock did get transferred to another ship. While no explanation is given, I think it was a type of reprimand. Pike took over the Enterprise so why not keep Spock? Maybe he was transferred to a garbage scow.

Since Spock suffered no immediate fallout in the meeting with Pike, I tend to think his actions weren't frowned upon in the same way Kirk's were. It's quite possible that Spock suffered no actual consequences and was moved by Pike to open up room for Kirk as Enterprise first officer.

How can you punish someone for saving others from certain death? Regardless of what the official position is, you'd begin having problems with recruitment of anyone with any type of true potential. Anyone with a soul wouldn't want to be part of that type of organization.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Although I do give them credit for building the second movie's plot around a tacit admission that they'd made a mistake promoting Kirk so fast in the first movie, that he hadn't really earned that authority and needed to learn humility in order to really deserve it.

Honestly, this was one of the things that bugged me about STID more than anything. They gave Kirk the exact same character arc he had in the first movie. I'd rather they just left him as Captain and had him learn humility in another way.

 

[fireproof78]

Although I do give them credit for building the second movie's plot around a tacit admission that they'd made a mistake promoting Kirk so fast in the first movie, that he hadn't really earned that authority and needed to learn humility in order to really deserve it.

Honestly, this was one of the things that bugged me about STID more than anything. They gave Kirk the exact same character arc he had in the first movie. I'd rather they just left him as Captain and had him learn humility in another way.

I can understand that idea, but that was not the take away I took. Kirk demonstrated initiative and bravery and loyalty in Trek 09, but he demonstrated no humility, so the arc in ID is him learning that as well as the need to sacrifice at times.

I think it works well as a broader arc that connects the two movies, rather than a repeating of the same arc.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I admit I also wondered why, in ST09 when Kirk is made first officer, there were no other officers on the ship who could have sufficed...I don't know this Enterprise's crew complement, but I'm guessing it's at least as big as the prime version's. So that's hundreds of crewmembers, and not one of them is a senior officer? Bit hard to believe.

 

[Christopher]

I think it works well as a broader arc that connects the two movies, rather than a repeating of the same arc.

Very true. The first movie was about Kirk proving to others that he was capable and they should listen to him; the second was about Kirk admitting to himself that he was fallible and needed to listen to others.

 

[Silvercrest]

It's pretty obvious that nuKirk has control over time. That explains how he accelerated his career, and it explains how the Enterprise got from Kronos to Earth in five minutes. (Nero's "lightning storm" caused him to emerge at the location and time Kirk was born because it was mystically drawn to Kirk.)

It all makes sense!

 

[Hartzilla2007]

How can you punish someone for saving others from certain death? Regardless of what the official position is, you'd begin having problems with recruitment of anyone with any type of true potential. Anyone with a soul wouldn't want to be part of that type of organization.

Never watched the modern trek episodes that dealt with it did you.

Although I do give them credit for building the second movie's plot around a tacit admission that they'd made a mistake promoting Kirk so fast in the first movie, that he hadn't really earned that authority and needed to learn humility in order to really deserve it.

Honestly, this was one of the things that bugged me about STID more than anything. They gave Kirk the exact same character arc he had in the first movie. I'd rather they just left him as Captain and had him learn humility in another way.

I can understand that idea, but that was not the take away I took. Kirk demonstrated initiative and bravery and loyalty in Trek 09, but he demonstrated no humility, so the arc in ID is him learning that as well as the need to sacrifice at times.

I think it works well as a broader arc that connects the two movies, rather than a repeating of the same arc.

Of course thinking about it, it also kind of means NuKirk might possibly be more mature than Prime Kirk.

Because thinking about TOS Kirk was pretty reckless and slightly lacking of humility at times.

 

[BillJ]

Never watched the modern trek episodes that dealt with it did you.

Yep. One of the things that has turned me off to the spin-offs.

 

[fireproof78]

I admit I also wondered why, in ST09 when Kirk is made first officer, there were no other officers on the ship who could have sufficed...I don't know this Enterprise's crew complement, but I'm guessing it's at least as big as the prime version's. So that's hundreds of crewmembers, and not one of them is a senior officer? Bit hard to believe.

Not really, given the severity of the attack. The Chief Medical Officer was killed, and I would imagine several other department heads were killed as well.

However, I will concede that it would have made it better if Pike had made Engineer Olsen XO, and Kirk second officer, then when Olsen is killed, Kirk moves up. It's a simple idea, but it works for me.

 

[DonIago]

Perhaps no other officers would have sufficed because the mission was put together hastily and the crew on the ship at the time was not representative of what it would have been under optimal circumstances.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Maybe Pike knew Olsen was an idiot.

 

[BillJ]

Maybe Pike knew Olsen was an idiot.

It does seem like an engineer of all people should've known when the ripcord needed to be pulled...