How did you get past NuKirk's rise to command?

[Greg Cox]

What it comes to down for me is that it was dramatically satisfying and worked on an emotional level, even if you don't want to think about it too hard. I came out of the movie grinning, not muttering darkly under my breath about Kirk's rapid promotion.

Basically, the movie was enjoyable enough that I cut them some slack when it came to giving the audience what it wanted: Captain Kirk taking command of the Enterprise, right where he belonged.

 

[The Old Mixer]

The only thing that made it a little more palatable for me was something that somebody posted in these parts years ago...that the paradigm being followed was a corporate one rather than a military one. Kirk was the boss's protégé and he got put on the fast track to take over the boss's spot despite the fact that many others had been working in that office for years.

we've had Acting Ensign Wesley save the ship a dozen times (and nearly doom it once)

Now imagine if he'd been promoted to captain at the end of the first episode in which that happened....

 

[BillJ]

The only thing that made it a little more palatable for me was something that somebody posted in these parts years ago...that the paradigm being followed was a corporate one rather than a military one. Kirk was the boss's protégé and he got put on the fast track to take over the boss's spot despite the fact that many others had been working in that office for years.

we've had Acting Ensign Wesley save the ship a dozen times (and nearly doom it once)

Now imagine if he'd been promoted to captain at the end of the first episode in which that happened....

The difference being, Wesley saved the ship and Kirk saved the Federation.

 

[Greg Cox]

From my perspective, I always saw it as something of a PR stunt by Starfleet. If you think about it, Earth had narrowly been saved, Starfleet had just lost an entire squadron of starships, and Vulcan had been destroyed. I can just imagine this meeting with the Admirals where they realize they have this young, smart, ruthless Lieutenant who just saved Earth, and also had the confidence of one their senior Captains. Why him not make him the face of Starfleet in this dark time? Give the people hope, etc.

I actually like this explanation, which strikes me as very plausible..

I mean, think about it. Vulcan--one of the founding worlds of the Federation--was destroyed and Earth came within minutes of going boom as well. You bet the public is going to need some reassurance--and what better way to do so than to play up the heroism of young "Captain" Kirk and his valiant crew and let Kirk keep command of the ship he used to save us all.

 

[Ryan8bit]

The only thing that made it a little more palatable for me was something that somebody posted in these parts years ago...that the paradigm being followed was a corporate one rather than a military one. Kirk was the boss's protégé and he got put on the fast track to take over the boss's spot despite the fact that many others had been working in that office for years.

You'd think there'd be a system in place that would prevent such clear nepotism though.

Personally, I think it's a bit of a stretch, but it's not much further than some of the other strange promotions we've seen (like Kirk being demoted and promoted). I just ignore it and move on.

And upthread Napoleon was mentioned. Imagine a movie where instead of going through the ranks for a dozen years, he was just Emperor right out of the military academy. He may have been a young ruler, but he at least worked his way into it a bit.

 

[DonIago]

"How did you get past NuKirk's rise to command?"

Pretty darn easily.

Though I appreciated that the beginning of ID calls out this very "issue", if one wants to think of it as such.

I love how the writers themselves said that ID called Kirk out on that and his immaturity and he earns the ship..
Well, no.
It went more like this:
He went against the rules and lied in a report so he loses the ship NO WAIT never mind! Pike makes him his first officer on the enterprise (thus making Spock, the one who did his duty in the report, lose HIS role and ship as he is the one transfered to another) NO WAIT never mind! Before he even does that, pike dies and Kirk gets the ship and captain chair back.

I'd love for the writers to be honest at least and admit he gotta be the captain because he's called Kirk, for the same reason the rest of the characters have those roles. I can't blame them for that.

Given that it was a rather obviously Evil Admiral who gave Kirk his command back and then assigned him on a mission from which Kirk was never intended to return, it seems a bit facetious to claim that Kirk being given the captaincy back is in any way positive in that instance.

 

[Timewalker]

Yeah, they could have inserted a time jump before the final scene, but there would be both pros and cons there, with the biggest drawback being that you have to assume that all the characters and their relationships somehow remained static for how many years it took for Kirk to rise through the ranks--which would defeat the point of watching this new version of the crew come together and seeing how their relationships and lives develop in this brand-new timeline. We'd have to assume, for instance, that Spock/Uhura were stuck in a holding pattern for four years or so . . . .

Considering how many years the TNG crew were together in the same jobs (with only a very few changes that were un-changed whenever they needed Worf back for the next movie), a few years for nuKirk to grow up and out of his Frat Boy persona would be as nothing. And maybe nuUhura would have learned some professionalism, too.

 

[MarsWeeps]

New-ish here, don't know if this is beating a dead horse, but for the life of me I can't understand howm anybody can accept the way new Kirk got promoted.

Simple...he was rewarded with a promotion and posting as Captain of the Enterprise because he stopped Nero from literally destroying the Earth. That's no small feat. If Kirk had simply followed orders like a good young cadet, Earth would have met the same fate as Vulcan. Think about it, Vulcan was completely destroyed and Earth was next. If Kirk hadn't taken matters into his own hand, there would be no Earth. I think giving him a ship of his own, the ship he used to save Earth does not stretch credibility in the way the story was presented.

What I thought was ridiculous was the way Kirk was demoted to cadet, promoted back to first officer and then back to Captain in the space of what....10 minutes in STID?

Also, Spock is a hypocrite. He chastises Kirk for violating the Prime Directive by saving him on Niburu but doesn't realize that he was also violating the Prime Directive by shutting down the volcano and saving the local inhabitants!

 

[HigHurtenflurst]

Wow, interesting. I had never noticed Kirk referred to as anything other than cadet, and never thought about Uhura's being an Lt. already. I guess I'm maybe too pedantic about some things, sometimes...

It still seems to me that because the Prime Universe mostly stuck to a believable, established, and familiar framework for the mundane "background," if you will, it allowed for greater suspension of dis-belief when it came to the more fanciful sci-if elements.

When the Nu Universe ignores that basic framework it begins to feel more like Alice in Wonderland...

Anyway, maybe I'll dust off the DVD and wear my glasses this time... Lt. Kirk, eh? Hmmmm..... Thanks guys!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah, they could have inserted a time jump before the final scene, but there would be both pros and cons there, with the biggest drawback being that you have to assume that all the characters and their relationships somehow remained static for how many years it took for Kirk to rise through the ranks--which would defeat the point of watching this new version of the crew come together and seeing how their relationships and lives develop in this brand-new timeline. We'd have to assume, for instance, that Spock/Uhura were stuck in a holding pattern for four years or so . . . .

Considering how many years the TNG crew were together in the same jobs (with only a very few changes that were un-changed whenever they needed Worf back for the next movie), a few years for nuKirk to grow up and out of his Frat Boy persona would be as nothing. And maybe nuUhura would have learned some professionalism, too.

If she was a real person, "professionalism" would be a plus. As a character in a movie its better for the drama that she has scenes that are well, dramatic.

 

[MacLeod]

Honestly, I shrug and move on.

Is it entirely believable? Probably not. But I can't blame the filmmakers for wanting to give us "Captain Kirk" by the end of the first movie.

Yeah, they could have inserted a time jump before the final scene, but there would be both pros and cons there, with the biggest drawback being that you have to assume that all the characters and their relationships somehow remained static for how many years it took for Kirk to rise through the ranks--which would defeat the point of watching this new version of the crew come together and seeing how their relationships and lives develop in this brand-new timeline. We'd have to assume, for instance, that Spock/Uhura were stuck in a holding pattern for four years or so . . . .

So, yeah, it's a cheat, but it's one I have no trouble getting past. Artistic license and all that.

Exactly sometimes you just have to shrug and move on.

Besides if you want a possible rationale and I admit it's a stretch it's that Kirk recieved a field promotion to say a Lt. Cmdr. when Pike made him XO and Spock a field promotion to Cmdr.

 

[F. King Daniel]

What I thought was ridiculous was the way Kirk was demoted to cadet, promoted back to first officer and then back to Captain in the space of what....10 minutes in STID?

"Cadet" is a position, not a rank. Rank-wise, Kirk was demoted to Commander, then back up to Captain (within 24-48hrs, in-universe)

 

[BillJ]

It still seems to me that because the Prime Universe mostly stuck to a believable, established, and familiar framework for the mundane "background," if you will, it allowed for greater suspension of dis-belief when it came to the more fanciful sci-if elements.

But it really didn't. Notice my Spock example from above.

 

[Commishsleer]

Also, Spock is a hypocrite. He chastises Kirk for violating the Prime Directive by saving him on Niburu but doesn't realize that he was also violating the Prime Directive by shutting down the volcano and saving the local inhabitants!

I doubt Spock thought saving the planet broke the PD. Maybe he's wrong, maybe he's right. But I'll assume he knows the rules. Unless he's twisting the rules and is putting a weird Vulcan slant on them.

Since the PD is not actually defined in nuTrek I have to assume its the TOS PD we're talking about (even though the writers were apparently 24th century 'fans')

The TOS PD allows you to save/investigate primitive planets if the population doesn't see your other world/superior technology.

So its the natives seeing the Enterprise, or the lying on the report which may have led to Kirk's demotion IMO. If it was the saving the primitive planet thing then I think that Pike would have just stopped it there and asked Kirk and Spock why they did that and not gone on about the lying in the report.

 

[Timewalker]

Yeah, they could have inserted a time jump before the final scene, but there would be both pros and cons there, with the biggest drawback being that you have to assume that all the characters and their relationships somehow remained static for how many years it took for Kirk to rise through the ranks--which would defeat the point of watching this new version of the crew come together and seeing how their relationships and lives develop in this brand-new timeline. We'd have to assume, for instance, that Spock/Uhura were stuck in a holding pattern for four years or so . . . .

Considering how many years the TNG crew were together in the same jobs (with only a very few changes that were un-changed whenever they needed Worf back for the next movie), a few years for nuKirk to grow up and out of his Frat Boy persona would be as nothing. And maybe nuUhura would have learned some professionalism, too.

If she was a real person, "professionalism" would be a plus. As a character in a movie its better for the drama that she has scenes that are well, dramatic.

That scene in the shuttle that basically added up to "Shut up, Captain, while I'm whining at my boyfriend while on duty" was pure soap opera with a side order of bad sitcom. If I wanted that, I'd watch a soap where this kind of nonsense is a normal part of the genre.

 

[Greg Cox]

So its the natives seeing the Enterprise, or the lying on the report which may have led to Kirk's demotion IMO. If it was the saving the primitive planet thing then I think that Pike would have just stopped it there and asked Kirk and Spock why they did that and not gone on about the lying in the report.

That's my take on it, too.

Nothing wrong with saving a "primitive" planet as long as you do it discreetly, and don't set yourself as gods or emperors afterwards, or provide advanced tech to cultures that aren't ready for it yet.

The TOS version of the PD is more of an anti-imperialist thing than a strict "hands-off" policy where strange new worlds and civilizations are concerned.

 

[DonIago]

That scene in the shuttle that basically added up to "Shut up, Captain, while I'm whining at my boyfriend while on duty" was pure soap opera with a side order of bad sitcom. If I wanted that, I'd watch a soap where this kind of nonsense is a normal part of the genre.

And yet it ties into both what happened in the earlier film and what will happen later in this film.

 

[Melakon]

The best policy is to follow advice from an old horror film: "Keep repeating 'It's only a movie... only a movie... only a movie...'"

 

[DonIago]

So its the natives seeing the Enterprise, or the lying on the report which may have led to Kirk's demotion IMO. If it was the saving the primitive planet thing then I think that Pike would have just stopped it there and asked Kirk and Spock why they did that and not gone on about the lying in the report.

That's my take on it, too.

Nothing wrong with saving a "primitive" planet as long as you do it discreetly, and don't set yourself as gods or emperors afterwards, or provide advanced tech to cultures that aren't ready for it yet.

The TOS version of the PD is more of an anti-imperialist thing than a strict "hands-off" policy where strange new worlds and civilizations are concerned.

Or, to borrow a line from Futurama, "When you do things right, people won't be sure you did anything at all."

 

[Set Harth]

I think there was an implied time jump from the escape from the Narada-crushing singularity to Kirk's promotion ceremony. That's what I inferred.

As I recall, Kirk's face was still bruised from that final battle on Nero's ship, so I don't think we're talking years here.

We know we're not talking years, because in STID it says right on screen that it's 2259.