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How did the Romulans leave Vulcan?

Enterprise's Awakening episode says "those who march beneath the Raptor's wings" opposed Surak and split off in the 4th century AD. But P'Jem was supposed to be established 9th century BC. So this implies Vulcans had interstellar travel as far back as 9th century BC. But that doesn't mean it was warp drive.

Who knows why they have ridges. There could have been mutation from atomic wars, genetic predisposition or interstellar travel.
 
DS9's Little Green Men implies that Vulcans are not warp capable in the 1940s. If we accept this as canon fact, than generational ships would have to be the most logical method for the Romulans to have left Vulcan.

Even if we chose to believe Quark (and I don't - he was probably pondering further time travel there), Vulcan lacking warp drive in 1940 would be no proof that Vulcan lacked warp drive when the Romulans left. There was this civilization-ruining war on the planet in between, after all.

As said on the parallel thread in the Tech forum, Vulcans managed to found the P'Jem monastery across interstellar distances a thousand years before Surak came along. If they had interstellar flight (of any sort) back then, it only stands to reason that they would have high warp by the time of Surak.

Of course, as said above, Romulans might have colonized outer space long before the Surakian war and possible final split of the society. Perhaps "Romulan" was a population group on Vulcan easily recognizable for having more prominent forehead ridges than any other group, and was the leading Vulcan power in exploring and colonizing space?

Timo Saloniemi
 
The ridges could quite easily just be a racial difference, much like the way humans have different skin colours or different shaped eyes.
 
Or a hormonal thing: if you let your hormones rage, your bulges are prominent, but if you exhibit Surakian calm, you stay flat. The effect might be negligible on normal Vulcanoids, but the Romulans would have taken it to aesthetic heights through medical intervention, just because they could.

If it's a throwback to primitive Vulcanoid features (as perhaps suggested by the Mintakan culture, although there's no good reason to think that this technologically primitive population would also be biologically primitive), perhaps Romulans flaunt their ridges because they really appreciate their prehistory? Many of our current body ideals (male ones at least) hark back to cavemen, or an already idealized picture thereof...

Timo Saloniemi
 
As said on the parallel thread in the Tech forum, Vulcans managed to found the P'Jem monastery across interstellar distances a thousand years before Surak came along. If they had interstellar flight (of any sort) back then, it only stands to reason that they would have high warp by the time of Surak.

Timo Saloniemi[/QUOTE]

I though P'Jem monastery was founded as a place for Vulcans to purge their emotions. Why would they do follow this paths centuries before Surak came along?
 
Or a hormonal thing: if you let your hormones rage, your bulges are prominent, but if you exhibit Surakian calm, you stay flat. The effect might be negligible on normal Vulcanoids, but the Romulans would have taken it to aesthetic heights through medical intervention, just because they could.

If it's a throwback to primitive Vulcanoid features (as perhaps suggested by the Mintakan culture, although there's no good reason to think that this technologically primitive population would also be biologically primitive), perhaps Romulans flaunt their ridges because they really appreciate their prehistory? Many of our current body ideals (male ones at least) hark back to cavemen, or an already idealized picture thereof...

Timo Saloniemi

Then again, it could just as easily be a fashion thing in Romulan culture. A surgical alteration similar to body piercings and tatoos.
 
The old novels "Spock's World" and "The Romulan Way" tell the Vulcan/Romulan split story really well. A few details have been contradicted over the years, but the basic story remains unchanged. The modern "Vulcan's Soul" trilogy is a modern re-telling featuring the Remans (which obviously didn't exist in the 80's versions of the story) which I haven't read.

According to SW and TRW, the Romulans-to-be left Vulcan in 17 huge sublight generation ships (each supporting 5000), and travelled at relativistic speeds toward their chosen destination. Several systems were explored and a few ships lost (perhaps explaining some of the other Vulcanoids found in TNG's time?) until they finally settled in the 128 Trianguli system, which became their new home.
 
The newer Sherman/Shwartz books describe pretty much the same exodus, but the actual departure is observed from the POV of some relatively minor characters and involves much infighting on Vulcan, with Surak playing only a minor part and S'Task acting mostly "off camera". The departure is panicky where Duane describes it as almost scholarly; also, some elements of the journey as described by Duane are made to look like misunderstandings/exaggerations committed by later history writers, whereas the S&S books describe the "ground truth" of how it really happened. The differences between the stories are minor in the end, though.

S&S omit any mention of a Duanesque alien invasion attempt as a catalyst for the exodus, but the stories certainly don't preclude the possibility of one. Vulcan might have been subject to many an alien visitation in both the S&S and Duane pasts.

...perhaps explaining some of the other Vulcanoids found in TNG's time?
The Debrune of "Gambit" fame were explicitly described as Romulan offshoot - and supposedly our heroes did know what they were talking about. If they were "leftovers" from the original convoy, then this would mean our TNG heroes consider "Romulans" a population group or culture that predates the settling of Romulus. They could also be part of a second wave of migration, out from Romulus, and perhaps back towards Vulcan again; Duane describes the loss of starflight capability and ambition on Romulus soon after arrival, but that, too, may be considered mythology rather than "ground truth", perhaps an excuse invented by the more modern Romulans to explain certain failures in their past.

I though P'Jem monastery was founded as a place for Vulcans to purge their emotions. Why would they do follow this paths centuries before Surak came along?
The monastery could have changed hands at some point, much like Hagia Sofia is a mosque (or rather a mosque museum) now despite having been built for a different faith. Or then Surak didn't invent the emotion-purging movement at all. It does sound like a natural thing to think of, in a society torn by emotion-driven war, now doesn't it? Surak might well have had like minds preceding his ideas by thousands of years.

OTOH, for all we know, Surak never actually was for this emotion-suppression thing himself, and merely promoted the use of reason. Various preexisting political or religious groups could have adopted Surak's political success as their own, adding their own, sometimes alien flavors to the movement that rode on that success.

What we know of P'Jem is this:

T'Pol: "It's an ancient spiritual retreat. A remote sanctuary for Kolinahr and peaceful meditation."
T'Pol: "The temple is almost three thousand years old, Commander. You can't expect it to be in pristine condition."
The temple is a Kolinahr retreat now, and is three thousand years old. We don't know what it was before, and it's possible that it wasn't even located on this remote planet originally - but from the context of the second statement, we do know that the actual physical building is that old, and not merely the institution.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Remember, Spock said that Vulcans were descendants of Sargon's people in TOS. Possibly all the "Vulcanoid" offshoots found throughout the galaxy are all other offshoots or ancient colonies of Sargon's people as well. They don't have to have come from Vulcan at all.
 
Actually, what Spock said was that the existence and actions of Sargon's people could explain the existence of Vulcans.

Sargon: "As you now leave your own seed on distant planets, so we left our seed behind us. Perhaps your own legends of an Adam and an Eve were two of our travellers."
Mulhall: "Our beliefs and our studies indicate that life on our planet, Earth, evolved independently."
Spock: "That would tend, however, to explain certain elements of Vulcan prehistory."
Since it would be unlikely for both Mulhall and Spock to be the offspring of the same species, Spock is speculating either that Sargon was a Vulcanoid, or that Sargon's people affected Vulcan prehistory in some other manner. Speculating the former would be odd when Sargon himself aims his words at Kirk and Mulhall and even explicitly quotes the human myth. Speculating the latter, though... Humanoids evolving on a desert where we see no evidence of the sort of forested environment that would favor them would call for an explanation, definitely. Either climate change, or then outside intervention such as "assisted migration".

We should consider that finding Vulcan-lookalikes on multiple planets need not mean that these are particularly closely related historically. Our heroes virtually never speculated that human-lookalikes found in distant places would be related to the people of Earth, either. Possibly panspermia or transplantation of humanoids is an accepted fact of the Trek universe, and our TOS folks merely lack the exact who, when and how, whereas our TNG folks know more about this and may obtain further keys to the ultimate truth in "The Chase". Sargon's folks may have turned out to have been significant transplanters - or then just bit players in a game with hundreds of participant cultures.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Maybe Sargon's people are related to the Progenitors/Preservers?

As for humanoids developing on a desert world, wasn't it pretty much canon that Vulcan was once a green world but the wars made it a desert?
 
Maybe Sargon's people are related to the Progenitors/Preservers?

To late for the former (by billions of years), too early for the latter (by hundreds of thousands)... It's a bit much to expect these cultures to span more than, say, a million years apiece.

As for humanoids developing on a desert world, wasn't it pretty much canon that Vulcan was once a green world but the wars made it a desert?

I doubt it ever was expressed anywhere on screen, and ENT makes it sort of dubious - the flashbacks to Surak's time don't suggest lushness or anything like that. Unless the ruination came from much earlier wars.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Spock's world said that the change to a desert climate was due to a massive solar flare in prehistorical times.
 
Likely it did, nuclear damage could do that sort of environmental change and the Vulcans already had FTL capacity before Surak. So they probably had nuclear capacity long before him, enough to damage the planet to such an extent.
 
I like the idea in the Star Charts book that Vulcan developed a form of FTL drive around 320 A.D. I could see some anti-Surak dissidents just itching to get off the planet than spend another year on a world they no longer recognized as their home...
 
I think Timo and The Baron are on to something: I'd say the ridges are an ethnic trait much as orientals have different eye shapes and facial features.
Now I'd like to raise a few points.


Who were the Romulans? In my opinion, the Romulans weren't simply random Vulcans who rejected Surak's teachings. I think they could have been an omogeneous group of people, inhabiting a determinate region on Vulcan and particularly attached to their values. "Those who marched under the Raptor Wings", an expression which suggests a determinate group of people. When they left their homeworld, a minority of other Vulcans who wouldn't accept Surak's teachings joined them. This would explain why a minority of Romulans show no ridges, whereas a predominant majority sports them.



What would convince them to move out? Romulans were a proud, fighting people. What would make them simply bow their heads and leave? I suppose the Romulans did fight a war against the "logicians", making it perhaps the very last stage of those centuries of violence that characterized early Vulcan History. They lost and Vulcans forced them to leave, being there no chance of pacific coexistence. This would explain in part the resentment most Romulans harbor for Vulcans after almost 2,000 years.


Warp-capable? And when? I think, as most of us, that Romulans left on high-impulse, generational ships. It must have taken them a lot of time, decades or even centuries, to finally find a planet that both resembled Vulcan and was not already inhabited by any powerful race.
The Romulans left Vulcan around 470 AD (TNG 7x04 "Gambit, Part I"). Meanwhile, on Vulcan they were left with the arduous task of recovering from a centuries-long conflict. Such times of hardships would help explain such a rapid and succesful diffusion of a stoic philosophy on Vulcan. It took them about 1,500 years to be capable again of consistent space travelling. By Earth's 19th century Vulcans were anyway travelling through space again (ENT 4x07, "The Forge"). Somewhere before the 19th century they had meanwhile developed warp-capable vessels.
So was Quark right in stating Vulcans weren't capable of travelling in space in the 1940s? No he was not. Besides, he is a bartender not a historian.
 
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I'm still worried that we don't have any good reason for the Vulcans/Romulans not having warp tech back in Surak's time. They had been interstellar for a long time already, and warp drive is not that hard to come by - all sorts of cultures have managed it on their own. For the Romulans to resort to sublight drive... Did they lose that much technology in the war, before the exodus? Warp drive would achieve pretty much the same dramatic effect if it were low warp (as the size of the speculative giant vessels might dictate).

Timo Saloniemi
 
You one thing I have never heard anybody suggest about the differences between Romulans, Remans and Vulcans is Genetic Engineering. I think Romulans could be perfectly capable of genetically altering their DNA to make them "better," whereas in the Federation that is outlawed. It also makes sense that the Remens were initially created to be a super warrior, and then later became a lower class when wars were over or whatever.

I have also pondered the idea that Remens were a cross breed between ancient vulcans that landed on Remus and a humanoid species that already lived there. I mean you never see any other Humanoid races within the Klingon and Romulan and Cardassian Empires but you have to assume with such a large space that others do live there.
 
Perhaps the Vulcans could build smallish, low war ships that would be impractical for moving tens of thousands of people. Imagine trying to move 50,000 people from Europe to America in the early days of the 20th century, shortly after trans-ocean air flight was achieved. While it would be possible to fly 4-6 people at a time it would be much more efficient to use large ocean going ships.
 
You one thing I have never heard anybody suggest about the differences between Romulans, Remans and Vulcans is Genetic Engineering. I think Romulans could be perfectly capable of genetically altering their DNA to make them "better," whereas in the Federation that is outlawed. It also makes sense that the Remens were initially created to be a super warrior, and then later became a lower class when wars were over or whatever.
I would guess they would abduct Vulcans and experiment on them, since Romulans appear to have lost their Touch telepathy ability. Diane Duane's My Enemy, My Ally, deals with this scenario.
 
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