How did Starfleet recruit new servicemen following the Burn and before the reopening of Starfleet ac

It makes sense just fine. For most of human history, technological progress has been slow, halting, and often reversed and regressed. Indoor plumbing was invented and forgotten many times before the modern era. The past 500 years of extreme technological progress is a historical outlier, and there's never any guarantee that technological progress won't be lost if the economic and technological infrastructure deteriorates.

The idea that there would be technological regression in some parts of the galaxy as a result of the loss of interstellar trade and information networks post-Burn makes perfect sense. It's the idea that technological progress is constant, and linear, and does not require infrastructures to be maintained, that is illogical.

They're good at their jobs. Some fans just have a habit of whining on the Internet over things they made up themselves.

Replicators require resources to operate and maintain. They require raw matter to transform into usable products, they require energy to operate, they require specialized software, they require specialized hardware, and they require a reliable source of well-educated engineers to maintain and repair.

Any one of these infrastructure points could be interrupted over the course of the centuries post-Burn, or even in the centuries preceding the Burn when dilithium was in short supply.

The idea that a planet's technological infrastructure could erode to the point of a major degradation in quality of life and lifespan is entirely plausible.

 

Someone forgot two Ferengi were able to keep a replicator running for seven years with only the resources available on a pre-industrial planet.

And that general maintenance engineer's are literally a button click away due to holographic technology.

As Deks pointed out, for technological regression you would need the complete destruction of every ship, planet, and starbase. And the Burn just didn't do that.

 

The situations aren't even remotely comparable.
UFP is a highly advanced interstellar organisation that showed it keeps multiple copies of its database on ships, stations, outposts, planets etc.
We also KNOW for certain the databases survived as it was clearly demonstrated on the show.
It would require total ERADICATION of UFP and its memory banks across all UFP member planets, colonies, stations/starbases/outposts... and that I tell you is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to occur (especially because the UFP was spread over 8000 ly's of space in late 24th century... and untold amount just before the Burn).

And then, for a show that keeps repeating how technology progressed over the past 930 years (and kept saying to Disco crew when it first arrived in the 32nd century just how 'outdated' Disco and its tech were compared to everything else), it absolutely DOES NOT make any sense whatsoever.

You simply cannot compare our own history to something like an evolved cilvilization like UFP that's spacefaring and has massive redundancy and copies spread all over the galaxy.

Even today it would be very difficult (short of a global catastrophe) to eradicate most of out technology and knowledge.

The UFP experienced a 'burp' which destroyed active dilihtium on ships (sure, a LOT of lives were lost, but FAR MORE survived on planets, starbases and outposts with all the technology and fully trainied people intact)... and even then, its extremely unrealistic that UFP would have still been using dilithium and M/AM as a main source of power by the 32nd century... that would have fallen out of use by early-mid 25th century most likely given everything we saw... (but as we know, Disco writers handwaved it all away for 'convenience' sake).

Plus, with 38 member planets remaining in UFP, and considering interspecies mixing/offspring and migrations that would have likely happened in the past 770 odd years before the Burn... each UFP member planet (prior to the Burn) would have likely had AT LEAST 8 billion people each (and that's a VERY low number per UFP member planet if I'm being honest)... not counting colonies, etc.
That's at least 304 BILLION people that would be available on remaining UFP worlds... and if even just 1% of that would have been in Starfleet, that would be 3.04 million people in Starfleet when Discovery landed in the 32nd century - so, no real personnell shortage for a UFP that size... including its automation and the fact you can have at least 3000 ships manned with those numbers (if we have 1000 people per ship... and the numbers are likely to be lower than that for many because of increased automation levels, etc.).

Heck, during the Burn I would imagine any REMAINAING UFP planets would have wanted to contribute as much as they possibly could to start in recuperation process, etc... so 1% is a very low estimate.
10% would be far more likely in regards to a number of volunteers.. and that pushes the numbers up to 30.4 billion people willing to contribute - and that's assuming the other 90% didn't CARE what happened to UFP... and that just doesn't sit well with me given how UFP was portrayed.

Why? Because of what UFP stands for... and we saw how 'devoted' Sahil was... so its likely a very similar response would have persisted in UFP remaining 38 member planets general population.

With each member planet having highly advanced/intact databases, technology such as replicators and programmable matter to work with (not mentioning even transporters - which should be Transwarp based really)... yeah... once you do basic math, the 'logic' behind some of Disco's writing falls apart pretty easily - and this could have easily been avoided with some better storytelling.

 

Not only that, but self-repair tech existed in the 23rd and 24th century.
Although in the case of the Ferengi on a pre-industrial world, they likely powered their replicator wirelessly from their shuttle's power core... and may have used some form of renewables as well (though I don't think this would have been needed because if the shuttle was mostly in standby mode with the lights on and occasional replicator use [which would not really be used becuase they'd have probably gotten food from the locals), its core could likely last a VERY long time

Plus, it was plaininly demonstrated in S3, episode 2 (the one where Discovery crashed on that backwater planet which Zahir harrassed) the inhabitants had technology that's far more advanced compared to what Discovery had on board (which was also mentioned in dialogue - Disco was 'termed' to be a fossil even by a 32nd century SF officer)... and a guy who used programmable matter to fix Disco's communications had superior basic engineering understanding than Tilly or Saru.

 

I don't think Burnham reminiscing about taking the Kobayashi Maru as a cadet and then pointing out that it was established in Season 1 that she went to the Vulcan Science Academy instead of Starfleet Academy is "whining... over things they made up themselves"

 

To be fair, its possible she may have taken the Kobayashi Maru test while she was on the Shenzou... it likely had a simulator which would have given her the same training option.

Otherwise, you're correct, Burnham was never a SF cadet - she never even went to SF Academy. Like T'Pol, her rank was probably 'transferred' to SF equivalent on the Shenzou... so she was probably a Liutenant, or Lt.Commander in SF terms and progressed to the rank of Commander in the 7 years there - because it would be impossible for Burnham to attend SF Academy for 4 years on the Shenzou, and then jump to the rank of Commander by her 7th year onboard - unless the SF Academy training was done on the Shenzou and her rank was simply preserved after that - but this seems unlikely because its eminently far more likely her existing Vulcan rank would have directly transferred to SF equivalent while on the Shenzou (plus there was 0 mention prior to that indicating that Burnham attended SF Academy or was ever a SF cadet).

 

How many Starfleet officers actually took the Kobayashi Maru in the 32nd century? (If there is no formal Starfleet Academy) though the file for Kobayashi Maru, was probably widely available and cadets could have undergone the Maru in the ship, (and station) holodecks and such. Though do we know if NCO’s took the Kobayashi Maru in the past?(since a lot of Starfleet would have been made up of NCOs like Sahil)(though it is likely that the KM would have been extended to NCO’s following the Burn)

 

Probably all of them did onboard remaining ships as part of their training in the holodecks and UFP/SF HQ.
Or, better yet, on the remaining 38 UFP member planets.

Its extremely unlikely that UFP would never create SF facilities on those member planets that could also act as training centers as well - especially after the Burn.
If they hadn't... that's just yet another form of lazy writing... especially when you consider travel times at regular Warp and how large UFP was already in the 24th century... nevermind in the 31st.

In fact, a single SF academy on Earth wouldn't really make sense in the 24th century even... a lot or most of the training I'd expect to be done on ships or member planets in the holodecks with existing trained officers who are stationed there... or holo replicas - depending from where in UFP cadets are coming from.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if from the 25th century, SF cadet training was done mostly remotely... or in different training centers across UFP.

 

And probably the stations as well.(though It wouldn’t be surprising if some far out stations happened to not have the data chip on hand during the burn, and had to reconstruct it using station computers.

By the 2380s Holopods are already a thing, so I wouldn’t be surprised if portable holodecks are common.(including portable training holodecks). It might have been explicitly stated that few know about KM so that would rule out Boilmer doing the KM prior to his joining Starfleet.

 

Good call. I forgot about holo pods. They're quite excellent for remote SF training honestly... and would be perfect for cadets (prior to the holo pods though, I'd imagine various holodecks could be requisitioned for remote classess - most of which would be done on a computer anyway... so holodecks would be reserved for training simulations at actual SF facilities.

In fact, its possible the UFP did just that in late 24th century as they may have considered shipping cadets from all over UFP to Earth for training would be a bit impractical.
Or they would do most of the training off-world on their native planets (or wherever they were) and would end up just coming to the Academy as a form of 'formality' of sorts.

 

The logistical problem of the SFA academics could easily be solved by subspace classes, with occasional in person class events at Starfleet academy. Starfleet academy would have remained for a lot longer due to conservatism before the widespread adoption of holopods and later personal holodecks made remote learning more popular.

If Starfleet academy has campuses all over the UFP then why was SFA only established in the late 32nd century? Though maintaining SFA might have been to costly following the Burn. The administration of the interstellar academy could also have been deemed to expensive due to communications difficulties following the burn. The new Dilithium supplies founded by Burnham thus enabling the re-establishment of Starfleet Academy,

 

RE-established.

That's the key word here.

 

I only said that it would 'make sense' for UFP to have SF academy campuses and training facilities all over UFP.
Or at least, all UFP member planets would have SF facilities because their original militaries, ships, etc. (or at least most of them) would be ABSORBED into Starfleet.
So it also makes sense a SF facility for that member planet would effectively exist... and that facility would likely have holodecks, etc... everything that's necessary for cadet training on the spot.

Even following the Burn, it would be paramount to have training facilities on those remaining 38 member planets.
Communication difficulties resulted in the other 312 panets to secede from the Federation (no way to maintain contact or provide support over such large distances)... they didn't have many comms issues (or travel time issues) with remaining 38 member planets... and even NiVar's fleet arrived at UFP/SF HQ very quickly from when Burnham sent the original distress call.

And whats left of the fleet DID go out to provide humanitarian aid to where it was needed... so, it stands to reason there would be a ship or two that could be diverted to UFP member worlds to collect trained cadets who would begin their assignments on ships, stations, or wherever they were needed.

But I suppose no real thought went into it on behalf of Disco writers.

 

A hundred and twenty-some-odd years is quite a lot more than seven.

Holographic technology also being something that requires an infrastructure to maintain.

Which is nonsense and has never been true of any form of technological regression in real history.

That is an entirely different complaint than what this thread has been talking about. But:

The very first time we saw someone take the Kobayashi Maru Test, a fully-commissioned officer and Academy graduate was taking it. Saavik in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was a fully-commissioned officer and Academy graduate holding the rank of lieutenant. The Kobayashi Maru Test is not something only cadets take.

And at no point does Michael say she was a cadet when she took the test. Here is the episode transcript.

So, yes, this is some fans making up the idea that only cadets take the Kobayashi Maru Test and making up nonexistent dialogue from Michael where she allegedly refers to herself as a cadet.

This is, quite literally, an example of some fans whining about something they made up.

Computer systems can fail, particularly if the infrastructure necessary to preserve them and create new ones collapses. Access to computer systems is also dependent upon the political structures in place in the area where the computer systems are located.

Databases survived in some areas and not others, and access to such systems was widespread in some areas and restricted in others as a result of political developments.

And the Titanic is unsinkable!

A near-total breakdown of interstellar travel is more than just a burp.

It is a canonical fact that dilithium is a necessary resource in the generation of sufficient energy for warp drive, whether the engine is a matter/anti-matter reactor or other kind of engine.

I agree that on many highly-developed planets there would be a large population and a good infrastructure, but I think you're making some very Human-centric assumptions when you say it should be a minimum of 8 billion. There may well be species that reproduce in lesser numbers than Humans as a result of cultural and/or biological differences.

Was the depiction of the Federation in S3 incompatible with the idea that there's still a decent planet-based infrastructure on many remaining worlds? I think something to bear in mind here is that the loss of power and prestige is relative to its former heights. The UFP we saw in DIS S3 would still be considered at least a lower-middle-sized interstellar power by 24th Century standards.

I don't think you're really giving consideration to the differences between the center and the periphery when resources are distributed in a crisis by a hegemon, particularly a hegemon going through a period of decline. By your logic, the water in Flint should not still be toxic after almost a decade -- after all, the know-how to fix it is still around!

In real life, the center can remain relatively wealthy even as wealth is withdrawn from the periphery and periphery infrastructure (political infrastructure first, then tech infrastructure) collapses.

 

Exactly so. And more than that there is tech on Earth that we cannot completely replicate or get to work due to lost knowledge. It isn't a lack of intelligence but simply the loss of information that can cause severe hampering of technological progress. Add in to the damage the Temporal Wars did, as well as the attitude of distrust that was forming and you have a recipe for a lot of loss.

 

Functionally it's not, because during those hundred years you would have used even just a single replicator to completely rebuild.

No it isn't, 29th century mobile emitters could be powered and maintained using pre-warp technology.

As of the 24th century Federation computer technology is proven to work and maintain it's data after spending six hundred years buried in dirt.

Real history doesn't apply here due to universal information redundancy.

No it isn't.

For sure in concerns to drives that didn't use Dilithium there was the Phoenix, early Earth starships which purely used Fusion, and of course Deep Space Nine's brief foray into warp travel.

And on that note, even if Fusion only provides half the energy of M/AM reactors, that just means you need two fusion reactors to meet the power generated by a single M/AM reactor. Which just means more of the ship has to be dedicated to fuel storage and reactor volume. Not that you are unable to go to Warp.

 

Yes, it is. Entropy increases over time. Things break.

Even during the 24th Century, Bajor was still in the process of rebuilding from the Occupation after obtaining multiple industrial replicators. Replicators are not actually a cure-all.

Sure, until the day comes when something damages the information stored inside the emitter and suddenly its hologram can't access the files necessary to repair itself.

Honestly that's about the best possible scenario, since Data's head was probably shielded by the rock from the normal radiation exposure everything on the surface experiences.

"The Titanic can't sink due to water-tight compartments!"

If a Federation engineer were to actually make such a claim, the word for this would be "hubris."

Nothing canonical ever indicated the Phoenix functioned without dilithium.

The only reference I can find to this is from a goddamn computer readout, which was not confirmed in dialogue. Personally I think info from most computer readouts is about as canonical as the giant hamster in a wheel aboard the Enterprise-D. But even then, nothing there precludes the necessity of dilithium to regulate the energy when it is transferred to warp coils.

DS9 did not have a "brief foray" into warp travel. They used a subspace bubble to reduce the station's mass but it still traveled at sublight speeds.

Every version of FTL travel ST has canonically shown so far requires dilithium, and the fact that the Burn is described as having a universally damaging effect upon all FTL-capable civilizations is the final canonical proof of that.

 

If they are designed to NOT break, chances are that things will survive for ridiculously large amounts of time - which we can already do if we put some effort into it... its mainly not done on a commercial level due to 'cost efficiency'.
Also, ever heard of self repair and self-maintenance? Both existed in 23rd and 24th century just not used to full potential.

Bajor only got 1 industrial replicator from UFP and it was deemed ready to join the UFP in under 5 years. That was a planet that underwent an occupation for 50 years and was virtually STRIPPED of its resources.
Quite a remarkable and fast recovery with just 1 industrial replicator.

After the Burn, 38 remaining UFP member planets... all with INTACT highly advanced technology (replicators and programmable matter - not to mention starbases, outposts, colonies, etc.) was more than enough to recover (especially during 125 years).

Sure, SF/UFP would have cautiously approached Warp travel after the Burn, but recovery with that kind of 'base' of technology and planetary resources should have been done in the first decade or two after the Burn... and re-established long range sensors and communications.

The way Disco presented the situation was as if the Burn happened a year or two after it arrived.
Seriously... over 100 years and 0 progress in recovery with what they had?
Utterly moronic and bad storytelling.

SF/UFP HQ could have easily linked all the ships stationed at HQ to continuously R&D new technologies and science... the remaining 38 member planets could have done the same.
The notion you'd experience ANY kind of regression is just ridiculous... and we know this wasn't the case because things were in general presented as being FAR more advanced compared to Disco's original 23rd century tech (sans the Spore Drive).

Such as what?
The EMH backup module kept the EMH intact for 700 years and was inferred the thing can keep him in there for another few eons... plus it survived passage of time while being supposedly buried under rubble (which survived after how much time of infighting?).

We already are designing storage that can last thousands of years... millions even.
To think UFP wouldn't be able to do such a thing (or even better) is quite frankly preposterous.

And yet, it survived hundreds of years of passage of time with all sorts of critters and earthquakes.
Interesting.

The original ship builders of the Titanic insist they never made the claim the ship was unsinkable.
That was a myth born out of people's mis-interpretations of articles in the Irish shibpbuilding magazines.

Speaking of which, I'm reminded of transverse bulkheads... Paris created them during year of hell to increase the amount of protection the crew would get in case of wide-scale breaches (which actually worked)... and if I recall, VOY was badly beaten and still managed to bring the fight to Annorax and Janeway managed to ram VOY into the time ship (after VOY received a dose of pounding from the time ship's conventional weapons).

Point is, the bulkeheads were meant to INCREASE crew's odds of surviving catastrophic breaches... and they did just that.

Paris never made the claim the ship would be indestructible.

And nothing canonical states otherwise.
But we do have a pointer.
From VOY, Chakotay stated on-screen that subspace technology wasn't invented until around 2196 (100 years or so after their sidetrack in the late 20th century 'Future's End')... to me, this would suggest that dilithium hadn't started being in use until AFTER subspace technology was developed.

First Contact Movie had Geordi saying inside the Phoenix to switch on the Warp core... which would at least suggest use of M/AM... but even if antimatter was used in that Warp core (whatever it was the Pheonix used at the time), it doesn't mean Dilithium was used.

Also, we know that Humans and most other Trek species used antimatter for the most part to generate enough power for Warp... but nothing indicates that's the ONLY reliable way of doing so.

Furthermore, Discovery has a nasty habit confusing power generation and FTL propulsion thinking they are both one and the same - they are not.

If its on a computer readout seen on the TV show (which are considered canonical)... its pretty much part of canon - second best compared to on-screen dialogue itself.

Incorrect.
The Caretaker flung ships from across the galaxy using a Tetryon reactor - which the VOY crew had scans of, and even managed to help repair one in Season 6 (which begs the question, if they had 0 information on the thing, how could they help repair one?).

The fake USS Dauntless (Quantum Slipstream V1) was never mentioned that it had dilithium and Paris even mentioned its main core is NOT antimatter.

Dilithium and M/AM are 'commonly' used to achieve Warp and other forms of FTL travel in Star Trek... but they're NOT the only way of doing so.

The Borg have unknown means of power generation, and are never stated to use Dilithium and M/AM.

The UFP was researching different ways of generating Warp and new power sources in the 24th century itself during TNG run.

The Romulans also used a Forced Quantum Singularity as a power source... no mention of Dilithium usage there either.


It's very 'convenient' for Disco to handwave everything away... and I find that utterly lazy and stupid.

 

Eh? Sahil wasn't an NCO, since Sahil's rank is Lieutenant, which would make him a commissioned officer.