I had heard the rumor as well. But there is no indication in any of the books of I've read of that being the case.
How did old Starfleet weapons fall into the hands of civilians?
- Thread starter Shark
- Start date
I had heard the rumor as well. But there is no indication in any of the books of I've read of that being the case.
Er, "Space Seed" happened 15 years before TWOK. Jameson's weapons trade happened 45 years before "Too Short a Season." Why would Terrell and Picard, respectively, who were not even there when these events occurred, would have known the exact particulars? So Terrell's never heard of Khan. So what? that doesn't mean Khan was classified info.
So far there's no evidence that this is true. I would think that even that early in TNG's production, they would have found a better story to bring Kirk back for than that.
So far there's no evidence that this is true. I would think that even that early in TNG's production, they would have found a better story to bring Kirk back for than that.
That's exactly what I mean. There's a lot of ground between "I declared it from the top of a mountain" and "I killed all the witnesses", and these particular events definitely call for something in the middle.
Kirk and Jameson, respectively, must have made sure that the facts of the matter would not be evident to future starship captains who are sent on a mission to the respective planets and actually bother to glance at the Starfleet version of wikipedia first. But they need not have lied to their superiors about everything, or even edited their logs all that severely. They could simply have found sympathetic souls among their superiors, people willing to keep a lid on the respective issues. Kirk's crew can't have been the only people in Starfleet who idolized Khan, and many could feel Jameson did the right thing there - correspondingly, such people would feel "the general public" would not appreciate their point of view, and would keep those ignoramuses out of the loop.
Timo Saloniemi
Well given that we know so little about the internal works of the UFP and it's various members, for all we know in the UFP you might have to go through several legal measures to own a weapon. And for most people esp. in the core worlds they might not think it worth the hassle. After all why would you need one?
Or maybe just that Starfleet captains don't possess the power of immediate recall of events that happened decades ago that they weren't even involved with.
C'mon, Man. Prospective captain's have to be able to recite the entire galactic encyclopedia before being allowed to take the chair.
Well, I know I have that ability. It's called Memory Alpha.
And it's a canon fact that Starfleet also has access to Memory Alpha.
The difference that Kirk and Jameson must have made is between the entries for the respective planets getting properly flagged for relevant information, and getting improperly flagged. It cannot be that Terrell or Picard would fail to call up the specs of their mission - the Short Introduction to the Ceti Alpha System and the Recent History of the Mordan IV Civil War, respecively - but it can very well be that said specs hide the presence of Khan and the shady deal with the guns way down the deeper levels of trivia sub-entries.
...But only if the skippers got somebody in a position of suitable power to do the hiding for them. The lower down the meddling, the more illegal it would be, naturally, and both captains might well stop short of doing the editing themselves.
Timo Saloniemi
And it's a canon fact that Starfleet also has access to Memory Alpha.
The difference that Kirk and Jameson must have made is between the entries for the respective planets getting properly flagged for relevant information, and getting improperly flagged. It cannot be that Terrell or Picard would fail to call up the specs of their mission - the Short Introduction to the Ceti Alpha System and the Recent History of the Mordan IV Civil War, respecively - but it can very well be that said specs hide the presence of Khan and the shady deal with the guns way down the deeper levels of trivia sub-entries.
...But only if the skippers got somebody in a position of suitable power to do the hiding for them. The lower down the meddling, the more illegal it would be, naturally, and both captains might well stop short of doing the editing themselves.
Timo Saloniemi
theft, replicators. Star fleet isn't up to date as you see.
When TMP was born, everyone in star fleet turned in their old weapons and received the new ones. The old ones most likely went into the nearest compactor and got recycled.
all the manuals state weapons are controlled like photon torpedo technology.
When TNG and VOY had hand held weapons upgrades, they immediately tossed the old weapons into the replicator and made new ones of the latest pattern. That was a constant complaint for later seasons of voayager. "why do they always have the latest movie hand weapons"
Theft is a big one. remember the TNG episode when they have to stop citizens from stealing ships and weapons from the Qualor Depot storage yards?
If star fleet is to lazy to remove photon torpedoes from a decommissioned ship, they most likely aren't going to remove hand weapons.
Remember the TNG episode where Picard and Wesley go on the mining shuttle and crashland, and Wesley is like "those are illegal" when the shuttle pilot pulls out several star fleet cutting phasers?
When TMP was born, everyone in star fleet turned in their old weapons and received the new ones. The old ones most likely went into the nearest compactor and got recycled.
all the manuals state weapons are controlled like photon torpedo technology.
When TNG and VOY had hand held weapons upgrades, they immediately tossed the old weapons into the replicator and made new ones of the latest pattern. That was a constant complaint for later seasons of voayager. "why do they always have the latest movie hand weapons"
Theft is a big one. remember the TNG episode when they have to stop citizens from stealing ships and weapons from the Qualor Depot storage yards?
If star fleet is to lazy to remove photon torpedoes from a decommissioned ship, they most likely aren't going to remove hand weapons.
Remember the TNG episode where Picard and Wesley go on the mining shuttle and crashland, and Wesley is like "those are illegal" when the shuttle pilot pulls out several star fleet cutting phasers?
I think everyone misses one of the most basic elements of Star Trek. Star Trek, at least TOS era Trek was essentially a Cold War story. That cold war does not end until ST VI. Star Fleet was a Military organization. We see several incidents over the original series of the Federation getting caught up in local proxy fights. Just as happened during the real Cold War. The Weapons were out there because the Federation supplied them to client worlds. Members or otherwise in order to maintain the balance of power. Old weapons get sold off instead of destroyed. Things move around. Guns don't always stay where you sent them 100 years ago.
You see similar hints of this sort of thing later in the TNG era as well. The Maquis were most certainly not arming themselves. It is a safe bet that the Federation also spread a lot of guns around during the Dominion War. Picard may not have been operating a Bass Pro out of the back of the 1701-D but the safe bet from what we saw is the Federation Themselves and Starfleet Command were doing what they felt needed to be done.
You see similar hints of this sort of thing later in the TNG era as well. The Maquis were most certainly not arming themselves. It is a safe bet that the Federation also spread a lot of guns around during the Dominion War. Picard may not have been operating a Bass Pro out of the back of the 1701-D but the safe bet from what we saw is the Federation Themselves and Starfleet Command were doing what they felt needed to be done.
Great...necrobumping again.
Or just get what you want from a future Walmart (and/or) replicate one at a time of your own choosing.
The latter would be great if you didn't want to keep a weapon in your home, if someone breaks in to your home you replicate a weapon on the spot, when you no longer feel the need for it, it gets "de-replicated."
Did you mean one of the tech manuals? Because I have most of them and I can't remember ever seeing this.
=
Besides, the episodes don't bear this out. The very first bit of Star Trek ever shown, "Man Trap", has a civilian scientist in possession of a raygun we later learn is a standard Starfleet sidearm from a decade prior.
At best, we can argue that Starfleet jealously hoards weapons that once belonged to the organization, but does nothing to prevent civilians from operating identical hardware as long as it never was Starfleet property.
This brings up an interesting question: do Trek sidearms wear down with use, and if so, how fast? Are our heroes in fact replicating new guns every six months or so anyway?
Timo Saloniemi
At best, we can argue that Starfleet jealously hoards weapons that once belonged to the organization, but does nothing to prevent civilians from operating identical hardware as long as it never was Starfleet property.
This brings up an interesting question: do Trek sidearms wear down with use, and if so, how fast? Are our heroes in fact replicating new guns every six months or so anyway?
Timo Saloniemi
What phasers? What party?
A specific type persisting for centuries isn't what I mean. VOY shows us that phasers can be replicated or otherwise produced (at the most basic, broken out of their sealed containers!) in desired shape and model, and that would no doubt include all the older shapes and models, too. So something being in use in TNG after having seen use in ENT doesn't mean the individual weapon would be centuries old.
TImo Saloniemi
A specific type persisting for centuries isn't what I mean. VOY shows us that phasers can be replicated or otherwise produced (at the most basic, broken out of their sealed containers!) in desired shape and model, and that would no doubt include all the older shapes and models, too. So something being in use in TNG after having seen use in ENT doesn't mean the individual weapon would be centuries old.
TImo Saloniemi
I think this represents a bit of a different situation than an average citizen on a Federation home world being able to secure one. Crater was by himself, as it turned out, on an isolated planet, working on a Fed sanctioned scientific mission. I don't see there being much of a stretch for him to be countenanced to have some means of self-defence available to him in the instance of encountering something unforeseen and existentially threatening.
Since our heroes virtually never visit "established" Earth/UFP settlements but rather all sorts of brave frontier outposts and military installations, we can't really tell. Certainly both Crater and Korby had Starfleet-style sidearms, but would Sam Kirk, another possible "government worker", have packed one while living on the tamed Deneva? The issue never arose. Would Sandoval's colony have had weapons of this type before they went totally hippie? Again, no way of telling. Would an outright criminal living on the fringes of the society have packed this kind of heat? After a few early tries, Trek outsourced crime to naughty aliens.
In TNG, we see colonists armed with various non-Starfleet weapons. Yet when Dirgo in "Final Mission" produces ex-Starfleet-looking guns, Picard says "Excellent!"... It's not all that likely that he is carrying those with specific government approval, least of all approval from the UFP government, as Dirgo comes from an outfit that, while probably part of the UFP, supposedly makes its own judiciary decisions.
Timo Saloniemi
In TNG, we see colonists armed with various non-Starfleet weapons. Yet when Dirgo in "Final Mission" produces ex-Starfleet-looking guns, Picard says "Excellent!"... It's not all that likely that he is carrying those with specific government approval, least of all approval from the UFP government, as Dirgo comes from an outfit that, while probably part of the UFP, supposedly makes its own judiciary decisions.
Timo Saloniemi
