How did old Starfleet weapons fall into the hands of civilians?

[Timo]

Recognizable sounds good - Jameson now framed innocent Klingon weapons merchants!

Framing of Klingons via their guns was also a plot point in DS9 "Honor Among Thieves". And Klingon guns were in the Bajoran rebel arsenal in "Shakaar". But the "Too Short a Season" guns create another connection even farther back...

...The good old John M. Ford novel Final Reflection, where the author comments on TOS having used as the Klingon sidearm the same basic design previously used by Eminians in "A Taste of Armageddon", only with a different business end. He has a character saying that Klingon weapons sales to primitives are greatly boosted by the Universal Translator making no difference between various "disruptors", be they the powerful Klingon stuff or "cheap sonics". The practice of grafting a weak weapon onto a recognizably Klingon battery pack seems to go way back!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shark]

I don't remember the episode exactly, did he tell Picard, et al. about his little transgression?

Yup.

JAMESON: Officially, the story is that after two other mediators were murdered, I went in and negotiated with Karnas to bring out the hostages safely.
PICARD: Are you saying that's not the truth?
JAMESON: It wasn't my golden oratory that saved them, Captain. I gave Karnas the weapons he wanted.
PICARD: You did what?
JAMESON: I gave exactly the same weapons to his rivals. My interpretation of the Prime Directive. Let them solve their problems with those arms on an equal basis.
PICARD: And that decision plunged them into forty years of civil war.
JAMESON: I didn't know that would happen. I thought a minor war. It would be settled in less than a year. How would I know it would take four decades? But I falsified the reports to Starfleet, and I lived with that on my soul, Picard. Sixty-three people came away safe but millions died on Mordan because I delivered those weapons.

http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/112.htm

Thanks for that. Jameson's an idiot.

 

[BillJ]

I don't remember the episode exactly, did he tell Picard, et al. about his little transgression?

Yup.

JAMESON: Officially, the story is that after two other mediators were murdered, I went in and negotiated with Karnas to bring out the hostages safely.
PICARD: Are you saying that's not the truth?
JAMESON: It wasn't my golden oratory that saved them, Captain. I gave Karnas the weapons he wanted.
PICARD: You did what?
JAMESON: I gave exactly the same weapons to his rivals. My interpretation of the Prime Directive. Let them solve their problems with those arms on an equal basis.
PICARD: And that decision plunged them into forty years of civil war.
JAMESON: I didn't know that would happen. I thought a minor war. It would be settled in less than a year. How would I know it would take four decades? But I falsified the reports to Starfleet, and I lived with that on my soul, Picard. Sixty-three people came away safe but millions died on Mordan because I delivered those weapons.

http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/112.htm

Thanks for that. Jameson's an idiot.

Not necessarily. He was trying to save innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. He saved their lives and ensured that the warring factions remained technological equals.

 

[Shark]

Yup.



http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/112.htm

Thanks for that. Jameson's an idiot.

Not necessarily. He was trying to save innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. He saved their lives and ensured that the warring factions remained technological equals.

Uh no, he killed more people than he saved. By his own admission. Which is kind of the point of the episode.

 

[Timo]

It's exactly the same thing Kirk did in "A Private Little War". Would it have been bad for the losing side to lose, in either case? Possibly. Worse than what actually transpired? Perhaps. Hard to tell, when history only ever transpires in one way. Unless one hops into a time machine, and Jameson didn't.. Why would Jameson be in a position to tell?

This "admission" thing just sounds rather hollow...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ManOnTheWave]

Yeah, the episode came across to me as trying to show the consequences of the actions of a character like Kirk.

 

[Timo]

They even originally wrote it to be all about Kirk, reputedly. But that got scrapped long before they approached Shatner to appear. I don't know how they would have made it to work, but I have no doubt it would have been bold. And memorable.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vandervecken]

Ironically, aside from that factor, Federation phasers (at least Starfleet models) would make WORSE marksmen out of their users, with all the sensor-driven targeting assists incorporated. Lose those, and your troops suddenly find themselves outshot by the enemy that is used to NOT having such advantages.

Yet it's not as if the Cardassian rifle has iron sights as backup, either. If <tech> breaks down, both sides would appear equally screwed - there's no visible way to manually aim these things.

OTOH, why bother to aim a phaser? Widebeam stun, TOS or ST3:TSfS style, might still work just fine, and it may also be possible to hose a kill beam, submachine gun style, even though we never see this happen. In a real tight spot, if aiming jams, you either have the option not to fire, or then you don't: if the latter, you probably are cleared to just blast that whole building, hill or forest to phase space and let unpersonified, completely un-supernatural forces of nature sort it out later.

Timo Saloniemi

If you're in an ongoing firefight, one that might become protracted, you'd aim to conserve power. Also, there might be any number of things around you--civilians, computers with military intelligence, etc--that you wouldn't want tod story.

 

[T'Girl]

both sides would appear equally screwed - there's no visible way to manually aim these things.

Boresight. You would aim like a fast draw in the old (American) west.

Something I noticed while quite young watching TOS, is that mostly people shot with the phaser at waist level, it's rare that they sighted over the top of the weapon.

To address the OP, Starfleet likely obtains their hand weapons from civilian weapons manufacturer, the phaser we're familiar with is basically a military version of a common civilian model.

 

[Shawnster]

Why are we assuming Starfleet issue weapons are not available to civilians? Why are we assuming Starfleet issue weapons are not shipped to other civilizations?

According to Wiki (for what that's worth), US military currently uses the Beretta M9 and the SIG Sauer P226Pistol/1097039.uts"] Both http://www.cabelas.com/product/SIG-Sauer-Centerfire-Pistols/1270842.uts and http://www.cabelas.com/product/Beretta-M-mm-Pistol/1097039.uts are listed as for sale on Cabela's website.

 

[BillJ]

Not necessarily. He was trying to save innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. He saved their lives and ensured that the warring factions remained technological equals.

Uh no, he killed more people than he saved. By his own admission. Which is kind of the point of the episode.

Jameson killed no one. Even Picard pointed out that they could've put an end to hostilities on their own, but chose to continue fighting.

PICARD: Karnas could have worked for peace during those years instead of continuing the war. It's not all on your head, Admiral.

Jameson not giving them weapons doesn't magically stop the war.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't remember the episode exactly, did he tell Picard, et al. about his little transgression?

Yup.

JAMESON: Officially, the story is that after two other mediators were murdered, I went in and negotiated with Karnas to bring out the hostages safely.
PICARD: Are you saying that's not the truth?
JAMESON: It wasn't my golden oratory that saved them, Captain. I gave Karnas the weapons he wanted.
PICARD: You did what?
JAMESON: I gave exactly the same weapons to his rivals. My interpretation of the Prime Directive. Let them solve their problems with those arms on an equal basis.
PICARD: And that decision plunged them into forty years of civil war.
JAMESON: I didn't know that would happen. I thought a minor war. It would be settled in less than a year. How would I know it would take four decades? But I falsified the reports to Starfleet, and I lived with that on my soul, Picard. Sixty-three people came away safe but millions died on Mordan because I delivered those weapons.

http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/112.htm

Sounds like Jameson was involved in "A Private Little War".

 

[Shark]

Not necessarily. He was trying to save innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. He saved their lives and ensured that the warring factions remained technological equals.

Uh no, he killed more people than he saved. By his own admission. Which is kind of the point of the episode.

Jameson killed no one. Even Picard pointed out that they could've put an end to hostilities on their own, but chose to continue fighting.

PICARD: Karnas could have worked for peace during those years instead of continuing the war. It's not all on your head, Admiral.

Jameson not giving them weapons doesn't magically stop the war.

He didn't help to stop the war either, he likely helped to kill a great many more people. Regardless of what Picard says or thinks, Jameson was there to negotiate peace, not broker an arms deal. He broke the prime directive. The fact that he worked so hard to cover it up makes that apparent. People only hide things they do wrong.

 

[T'Girl]

Sounds like Jameson was involved in "A Private Little War".

In A Private Little War one faction already were being supplied with weapons and had been give the technology to make primitive versions of those weapons.

Kirk gave the hill people the ability to defend themselves.

People only hide things they do wrong.

That doesn't follow, people keep things to themselves for quite a number of reasons.

Jameson's primary task was the hostages release, which he accomplished. By giving both sides equal weapons the factions were in the same place they were as just before the weapons were delivered. Armed and willing to kill.

Jameson gave neither side an advantage, the civil war wasn't started by Jameson, Karnas did that, seeking revenge for the murder of his father. When Jameson was there 45 years ago Karnas's tribe was one of many, at the time of the episode Karnas ruled the entire planet and had for at least five years.

Karnas never had to use the weapons a single time.

The weapons didn't fire themselves.

 

[BillJ]

People only hide things they do wrong.

Yeah. I see you haven't met the real world, yet.

 

[Shark]

People only hide things they do wrong.

That doesn't follow, people keep things to themselves for quite a number of reasons.

Jameson's primary task was the hostages release, which he accomplished. By giving both sides equal weapons the factions were in the same place they were as just before the weapons were delivered. Armed and willing to kill.

Jameson gave neither side an advantage, the civil war wasn't started by Jameson, Karnas did that, seeking revenge for the murder of his father. When Jameson was there 45 years ago Karnas's tribe was one of many, at the time of the episode Karnas ruled the entire planet and had for at least five years.

Karnas never had to use the weapons a single time.

The weapons didn't fire themselves.

Then why did he cover it up?

 

[Timo]

Why did Kirk cover up marooning Khan?

It appears relatively often that our heroes disagree with their superiors on a course of action, and think themselves entitled to do their own thing. When doing so, they might not advertise quite as much as otherwise. Doesn't mean they would categorically lie to everybody - but it would follow that Terrell wouldn't learn of what Kirk did, or Picard of what Jameson did, in all the necessary detail.

"People hide things they do wrong"? People don't do wrong. They do what they think is right (open doors to old ladies, rob banks), even though the rest of the universe might not always agree.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shark]

Why did Kirk cover up marooning Khan?

It appears relatively often that our heroes disagree with their superiors on a course of action, and think themselves entitled to do their own thing. When doing so, they might not advertise quite as much as otherwise. Doesn't mean they would categorically lie to everybody - but it would follow that Terrell wouldn't learn of what Kirk did, or Picard of what Jameson did, in all the necessary detail.

"People hide things they do wrong"? People don't do wrong. They do what they think is right (open doors to old ladies, rob banks), even though the rest of the universe might not always agree.

Timo Saloniemi

That is about the biggest load I've ever read. People don't do wrong? That's laughable.

As to the rest, there is absolutely no evidence that Kirk covered up his encounter with Khan. None at all. Baseless speculation. They didn't know about the destruction of Ceti Alpha VI and forgot about Khan. That's about all you can say about his convenient surprise reveal on Ceti Alpha V.

Sometimes a plot device is just a plot device.

 

[Timo]

That is about the biggest load I've ever read. People don't do wrong? That's laughable.

Hmh? Have you ever done wrong? If so, why did you do it? Just by accident? If you actually had a reason, then you thought you were in the right, by definition.

(If you didn't, I win by default, too. )

It's a solid fact that Terrell doesn't know that Khan is alive and down on the planet. It's a fact equal to Picard not knowing what happened between Jameson and Karnas.

We can argue that Terrell "forgot". But then we have to also argue that Picard "forgot". Both convincingly indicate they had no idea.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

I don't remember the episode exactly, did he tell Picard, et al. about his little transgression?

Yup.

JAMESON: Officially, the story is that after two other mediators were murdered, I went in and negotiated with Karnas to bring out the hostages safely.
PICARD: Are you saying that's not the truth?
JAMESON: It wasn't my golden oratory that saved them, Captain. I gave Karnas the weapons he wanted.
PICARD: You did what?
JAMESON: I gave exactly the same weapons to his rivals. My interpretation of the Prime Directive. Let them solve their problems with those arms on an equal basis.
PICARD: And that decision plunged them into forty years of civil war.
JAMESON: I didn't know that would happen. I thought a minor war. It would be settled in less than a year. How would I know it would take four decades? But I falsified the reports to Starfleet, and I lived with that on my soul, Picard. Sixty-three people came away safe but millions died on Mordan because I delivered those weapons.

http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/112.htm

Sounds like Jameson was involved in "A Private Little War".

I read a rumour here once that "Too Short a Season" began life as a sequel to "A Private Little War" bringing back William Shatner as Kirk. No clue if there's any truth to it, though.