How did old Starfleet weapons fall into the hands of civilians?

[Shark]

I'm speaking specifically of self-proclaimed 'Captain' Dirgo and his small collection of old Starfleet Phasers in the TNG episode "Final Mission". (Phaser props left over from Star Trek III) How did some random guy on random planet X aquire such weapons? Are such things allowed by the Federation? Or were they handed out by 'rogue' Starfleet officers like Admiral Jameson? I don't buy the notion that they're similar in look and shape but different from what we saw Starfleet use, i.e. alien knock-offs. I think they were exactly what they were meant to be - Starfleet Phasers, why use them otherwise? Especially since they had to alter (Distress) them for the episode, which costs money. And I'm sure they had plenty of random Alien/Phaser props hanging around that they could have used in their place.


"Final Mission" Phaser.

Did Starfleet themselves make knock-offs of their old Phasers to give to friendly/member worlds; possibly de-powered variants? The real world equivalent of this is the U.S. refitting some of it's old diesel submarines to lesser standards and selling or loaning them to other nations.

Why did the filmmakers choose old Starfleet Phasers? Was there some specific meaning they were attempting to convey?

Interesting tidbit about the Phasers, they sounded, operated and fired beams like all the other Trek Phasers used at the time of TNG. The actual props had different lighting effects than those used in Star Trek III and I think they were re-built stunt Phasers from TSFS. Originally, the producers were thinking about using the Starfleet Phasers from "Yesterday's Enterprise" and went so far as to modify the vac-u-formed one worn by Christopher McDonald; they painted it red with a gray splotch pattern over it and added a rubber grip to the handle. Obviously they decided not to go with that one and used the Trek III Phasers instead, for whatever reasons...


Modded "Yesterday's Enterprise" Phaser for "Final Mission"

 

[Timo]

We have never heard of the UFP limiting the right of people to bear arms, or fly combat spacecraft, or whatever. Random UFP civilians are always packing heat - even the meek Kevin Uxbridge, in whose case it comes as a surprise that his handgun isn't operational. The closest thing to a limitation is the banning of Varon-T and its ilk, death rays with excess cruelty built in. But supposedly the type seen on Dirgo doesn't have such characteristics.

Whether there would exist some sort of a difference between "civilian" and "military" death rays is pure speculation. The easiest explanation here is that guns are being produced by X (a conventional commercial enterprise, a futuristic charity operation, whatever), and Starfleet is but one purchaser of a given type.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

They could of course have limited settings i.e they don't have a Kill or vaporise setting.

 

[Shark]

Random UFP civilians are always packing heat - even the meek Kevin Uxbridge, in whose case it comes as a surprise that his handgun isn't operational.
Timo Saloniemi

His Phaser was described as being "low yield". That was an obvious limitation.

It's not so much that people in the Federation have Phasers, it is just odd that this one guy has Starfleet Phasers. And it is possible that they were simply of the same design as the old ones. It's also possible that they were trying to reinforce the idea that what Dirgo uses is old and, knowing their audience, picked something we'd all recognize as being out of date.

 

[ManOnTheWave]

My guess was the old Starfleet phasers were A) actually hundred year old weapons in circulation from arms dealers who acquired them by theft of scavenging, or B) hundred year old designs replicated by Starfleet to supply adequate but not state of the art weaponry like in "A Private Little War," or C) Both.

 

[Phantom]

Real world militaries unload surplus weapons. I would assume in that case that they were (as said upthread) "demilitarized" by reducing their power to acceptable levels for civilian use.

Alternately they could be black-market weapons built to obsolete Starfleet plans.

 

[Timo]

It is not all thát typical for militaries to use state of the art personal weapons. Civilian guns are often far more modern, as a civilian is willing to pay top dollar and is interested in various "cool" and "nice to have" features that would be detrimental to a military weapon.

OTOH, militaries may participate in funding research on experimental guns (such as caseless or telescoping-case ammunition today) even though this doesn't result in the military purchasing these experiments outright, while civilian funding seldom results in such developments. This may create the illusion that military weapons are advanced, when in fact "advanced" is an undesirable feature in military use, diametrically opposite to "proven", aka "reliable".

Starfleet might well be relying on old civilian death rays for its needs - after all, at the level demonstrated in the shows, a death ray simply is a death ray, the ultimate and perfect weapon, no design being better or worse than another any more. Say, Kira goes to some length about the differences between a Starfleet death ray rifle and a Cardassian one in "Return to Grace", but these differences really make no practical difference in any of the various styles of fight we see.

Here we are talking of sidearms specifically. The typical military sidearm of today is a civilian weapon, seeing equally widespread use in garrisons and suburbs. Often, it was developed for civilian markets first (most of the Berettas and Glocks in military use were pure consumer projects before gaining a military, paramilitary or law enforcement notorierity).

Heck, for all we know, the device carried by Dirgo is a mining implement that has been militarized by Starfleet with minor adjustments to software.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

They may not be so much Starfleet phasers as they are just Federation-made phasers. They could be made by a Federation manufacturer that has a contract with Starfleet, but also produces phasers for civilian use. Just like the "slugthrowers" of old, there will probably always be a need by civilians for a defensive sidearm on the frontier. Phasers can also serve as handy cutting and welding tools as well.

 

[Phantom]

There are differences between military and civilian arms of the same type in many cases, such as the lack of full auto on the civilian version, magazine limitations, etc.

In TOS, for example, the Janus IV civilian miners were only limited to Phaser 1s. Starfleet, however, had Phaser IIs, which were said to be more powerful.

As for Kira's comparison of Federation and Cardassian weapons, she makes valid points. The more do-dads you put in the thing, the more things that can break. Ironically, aside from that factor, Federation phasers (at least Starfleet models) would make WORSE marksmen out of their users, with all the sensor-driven targeting assists incorporated. Lose those, and your troops suddenly find themselves outshot by the enemy that is used to NOT having such advantages.

 

[BillJ]

Starfleet yard sale?

 

[Trekkin]

Fell off the back of a shuttle.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Could be civilian knock-offs of Starfleet tech. Could be what happens when Starfleet changes supplier (I believe "Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise" and FASA had a whole backstory for the companies that made the above phasers)

 

[Timo]

Ironically, aside from that factor, Federation phasers (at least Starfleet models) would make WORSE marksmen out of their users, with all the sensor-driven targeting assists incorporated. Lose those, and your troops suddenly find themselves outshot by the enemy that is used to NOT having such advantages.

Yet it's not as if the Cardassian rifle has iron sights as backup, either. If <tech> breaks down, both sides would appear equally screwed - there's no visible way to manually aim these things.

OTOH, why bother to aim a phaser? Widebeam stun, TOS or ST3:TSfS style, might still work just fine, and it may also be possible to hose a kill beam, submachine gun style, even though we never see this happen. In a real tight spot, if aiming jams, you either have the option not to fire, or then you don't: if the latter, you probably are cleared to just blast that whole building, hill or forest to phase space and let unpersonified, completely un-supernatural forces of nature sort it out later.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Richard Baker]

I can see a fair number of weapons being recirculated in the civilian sector, plus a number being replicated from Jane's Weapon Database...

 

[Dukhat]

In "Too Short a Season," Mark Jameson sold illegal weapons (including Starfleet phasers) to an alien planet. So there's precedence here that these weapons were obtained by underhanded means.

 

[BillJ]

In "Too Short a Season," Mark Jameson sold illegal weapons (including Starfleet phasers) to an alien planet. So there's precedence here that these weapons were obtained by underhanded means.

I don't think he sold them, he gave them to Karnas to get hostages released. Then handed some to the rival factions as well.

 

[Dukhat]

Yep, you're right. Regardless, they were given illegally. It's no stretch to think that older weapons couldn't have found their way into the wrong hands over time because of things like this. It's not like things like this don't happen IRL, lol.

 

[Timo]

Interestingly, what Karnas got seemed to be Klingon surplus/export models - Klingon rifle butts with a new, humbler-looking working end. Perhaps Jameson liked deniability?

Karnas did have a Starfleet phaser of ST3:TSfS type on his wall, but that wasn't among the weapons his troops used.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shark]

It's funny, you'd think Jameson would have given them weapons that were a little less recognizable, even if they were older Starfeet weapons. I don't remember the episode exactly, did he tell Picard, et al. about his little transgression?

 

[BillJ]

I don't remember the episode exactly, did he tell Picard, et al. about his little transgression?

Yup.

JAMESON: Officially, the story is that after two other mediators were murdered, I went in and negotiated with Karnas to bring out the hostages safely.
PICARD: Are you saying that's not the truth?
JAMESON: It wasn't my golden oratory that saved them, Captain. I gave Karnas the weapons he wanted.
PICARD: You did what?
JAMESON: I gave exactly the same weapons to his rivals. My interpretation of the Prime Directive. Let them solve their problems with those arms on an equal basis.
PICARD: And that decision plunged them into forty years of civil war.
JAMESON: I didn't know that would happen. I thought a minor war. It would be settled in less than a year. How would I know it would take four decades? But I falsified the reports to Starfleet, and I lived with that on my soul, Picard. Sixty-three people came away safe but millions died on Mordan because I delivered those weapons.

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