how did burlinghoff rassmussen know about the enterprise d?

[Mojochi]

This is an odd formulation: why "is" the timer programmed in the passive sense? It sounds as if the thief had little say in this respect.

Also, what would be the logic of the thief setting an auto-return with a "timer"? Why not just hit the relevant "go now!" button? There is no tactical benefit to using a timer, and as shown, using it poses a massive risk to the thief and his operation.

Hence the possibility of the legitimate time pod owner being behind the timer setting, and the need for a reason for him to wish to return to New Jersey after visiting the E-D (or the dying planet, which had no E-D anywhere near it those "weeks" ago when the thief said he was still/already struggling with the controls).

Timo Saloniemi

Your take is certainly possible, but it's also possible (And I lean more toward this) that the thief found a way to get the pod to leave the 22nd century bound for the 24th, & return back, but couldn't manage to get around what might be a timer set as a standard, for that time jump, or maybe any/all time jumps.

Like I've postulated earlier, the whole idea that he'd find the 1701-D in such a specific place, & have at least some info about it, kind of hints that the real historian was likely planning a trip to there & then, which means the trip itself might already have been preprogrammed to some degree, & the imposter stumbled onto that, & figured it would make a useful heist. The exit destination might have been easier to reset than the timer, which might be a general protocol the historian observes for some temporal directive reasoning.

So then if the timer is a hard set kind of generic program, how did the imposter stop the ship from a timed-out departure in his own 22nd century's time, long enough to have a few weeks to tinker with it? Well, at that time, he also had access to the owner, who he could've held hostage until the timer was going to run out on him, leaving him no choice but to cancel it himself, at which time the imposter could dispatch with him

A time machine being put on a timer at all is a pretty shitty deal for any time traveling. If it is on one, it must be there for a really good reason, like temporal prime directive type stuff maybe

 

[at Quark's]

The issue here is that Picard had some sort of "credentials" he could check, and found the visitor genuine by those standards.

If this is the thief's first-ever time hop, as it appears to be, what sort of credentials could he have cooked up? Would he need to borrow those like he borrowed the pod?

The other side of the coin, though: how could Picard possibly verify any of these credentials? He can't cross-check with any database. And even something that seems impossible to counterfeit in his own era might be trivially easy to fake in the 26th century - and he already knows that this visitor came in a temporal disturbance, posesses technology he has never seen before, since they can't scan within the pod and it's an alloy they've never seen- so the idea that his visitor is from the 26th century already would be credible. So ultimately it seems he simply would have to choose to believe the visitor on his word (or not, of course).

Edit: Just rewatched the episode, and it appears Rasmussen's greed and stupidity caught up with him. On the tray with stolen items in the shuttlepod appear some very personal items, such as a Klingon blade (what value would that have had to Rasmussen anyway?) and Geordi's visor (besides some more mundane items such as a tricorder and such). No wonder the crew noticed some items were missing ... (or did they just replicate a copy for him?)

 

[Tim Thomason]

The other side of the coin, though: how could Picard possibly verify any of these credentials? He can't cross-check with any database. And even something that seems impossible to counterfeit in his own era might be trivially easy to fake in the 26th century - and he already knows that this visitor came in a temporal disturbance, posesses technology he has never seen before, since they can't scan within the pod and it's an alloy they've never seen- so the idea that his visitor is from the 26th century already would be credible. So ultimately it seems he simply would have to choose to believe the visitor on his word (or not, of course).

It should be trivially easy to make credentials via Bill & Ted rules. Tell him you're going to place a code in the Federation database in one hour, but ask for that code first. He gives you the code, you look it over, then you run the random number generator to create the code. If the code matches, he checks out as from the future (or his ship at least). Then make sure to place the code in the Federation database in one hour.

 

[at Quark's]

It should be trivially easy to make credentials via Bill & Ted rules. Tell him you're going to place a code in the Federation database in one hour, but ask for that code first. He gives you the code, you look it over, then you run the random number generator to create the code. If the code matches, he checks out as from the future (or his ship at least). Then make sure to place the code in the Federation database in one hour.

^ Except that "Future Guy" doesn't have to cooperate without necessarily losing his credibility. Rasmussen (who wouldn't know the code as he's from the past) could simply claim that very little of 24th century databases were left in the 26th century. He even convinced Data that exact way to hand over some schematics of himself even while at the same time claiming Data was like the (famous) model T of androids ...

 

[Tribble Threat]

Also, what would be the logic of the thief setting an auto-return with a "timer"? Why not just hit the relevant "go now!" button? There is no tactical benefit to using a timer, and as shown, using it poses a massive risk to the thief and his operation.

That's a good point. And your base theory makes a lot of sense. But I have an image in my head of this thief baffled by the controls, pounding on a bunch of buttons, and suddenly a message about a timer appears on his screen, and he can't figure out how to close it, so he tries to set the timer to go home. Maybe he was still trying to figure out the controls when he suddenly wound up in space and learned he's in the future.

 

[Mojochi]

Edit: Just rewatched the episode, and it appears Rasmussen's greed and stupidity caught up with him. On the tray with stolen items in the shuttlepod appear some very personal items, such as a Klingon blade (what value would that have had to Rasmussen anyway?) and Geordi's visor (besides some more mundane items such as a tricorder and such). No wonder the crew noticed some items were missing ... (or did they just replicate a copy for him?)

I noticed that some time ago too, Geordi's VISOR. I have to assume he has more than one. He did change models some time between year 1 & 5.

So he probably gave Rasmussen a spare to examine, just like Bev gave him that neural stimulator. That's even dumber than stealing things. It looks as if he just asked for stuff & never returned it. WTF he'd do with one of Worf's D'k tahg blades is beyond me though. I can't imagine anybody giving a crap when he "Invented" a goofy looking knife

 

[Timo]

I would assume his every theft was on the basis of a questionnaire answer. Quite possibly Worf convinced him that this very dagger with this very carving in the handle was Key to the Empire or whatever, and he went "What the hell, perhaps I can vie for Klingon Emperor one day - after all, it costs me exactly nothing to nick this one, too".

Or then Worf waxed poetic about the quality of his knife, and the thief decided to "invent" the Eternally Sharp Rasmussen Blade (with the Secret Space Alloy), again because it cost him no extra.

I trust the putative Real Rasmussen would have presented his credentials to the thief, which is how he knows about those. In all probability, it would have to be something a suspicious man (or even, shudder the thought, a woman or slave!) from the deep past could appreciate, too. Inserting one's face in ancient annals would work to a degree: if a book (or a trusted future reproduction of the original) shows a good photo of you shaking hands with Lincoln at Gettysburg, another with Stalin at Yalta, and yet another with Green at Lake Armstrong, you are a time traveler all right, even if your mark fails to appreciate the shot of you shaking hands with Kirk at Organia because this is still in his future. It doesn't matter if such photos can be faked - it's the act of inserting the fakes (or genuine articles) in those old books in ye olden days that counts.

If you appear in an as such trusted 11th century tapestry, recognizing your face will of course be a tad harder... But perhaps you slip your easily recognizable Secret Symbol in every such artwork, down to that carved walrus tusk from zillion B.C.?

The real time travel scholar could do all that - and a time thief would not have the patience, so the possession of the credentials would tell something (utterly false) about his character, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

The real time travel scholar could do all that - and a time thief would not have the patience, so the possession of the credentials would tell something (utterly false) about his character, too.

If someone showed me such evidence, I would perhaps believe he's a time traveller, but I would take it as evidence against the case he's a time travel scholar - after all he seems to be rather carelessly and frivolously meddling with the past just to get some credentials.

Paradoxically, convincing Picard he's really a time traveler would probably be the easy part here. He needn't do too much. After all, he already has that mystery shuttle of a never-before-seen material, impenetrable by scanners and Picard already saw him appear suddenly in "a temporal distortion". All he'd need to do is either present those old artifacts as you describe, or present a few trinkets that are clearly beyond any contemporary Federation science or of any civilization known to the Federation. Or perhaps show part of a database that contains information both current and of future events and also includes currently highly classified information too. There's a number of ways.

But how could Rasmussen prove to Picard he's a bona fide scholar, and not just some con man trying to meddle with time/ historical events, even if he actually came from another time? How to convince him to order his crew to cooperate and go along with any request as long as it didn't become too outrageous -- instead of stunning him, keeping him under sedation,stripping him of all artifacts, and just locking him up to be on the safe side? After all, a conning time traveler would be exceedingly dangerous ... (Well, Picard probably wouldn't do something of that kind, but you get the idea)

 

[Timo]

If someone showed me such evidence, I would perhaps believe he's a time traveller, but I would take it as evidence against the case he's a time travel scholar - after all he seems to be rather carelessly and frivolously meddling with the past just to get some credentials.

I'd see that working for him: he could be doing damage, but demonstrably isn't. Or at least he doesn't change the history that Picard knows, even if Picard

a) couldn't tell even if he did
b) might not much appreciate the history he got.

"I was there and didn't break anything" is the thing Picard wants to hear, regardless of whether the guy in front of him is a mass murderer who never murders or a butterfly collector who never pinned a butterfly.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tim Thomason]

^ Except that "Future Guy" doesn't have to cooperate without necessarily losing his credibility. Rasmussen (who wouldn't know the code as he's from the past) could simply claim that very little of 24th century databases were left in the 26th century. He even convinced Data that exact way to hand over some schematics of himself even while at the same time claiming Data was like the (famous) model T of androids ...

I presume it would be in a database accessible onboard the time travel pod. It makes a little sense that 24th century Starfleet might prepare a code or something for "time travelers" beyond a certain date to use, and Matt Frewer's character had this code. It would be useless in the 22nd century, but by Picard's time, they'd dealt with time travel enough that preparing some type of credential was deemed necessary in the expectation that you are approached by a future agent. Maybe it's something Archer developed in secret or the DTI invented in the 2260s in the course of developing their own historical research missions for a brief time.

 

[gakelly]

I would think that the computers on the pod would probably have any schematics or plans for those devices that you could want.

 

[Tribble Threat]

I assumed that the talk about "credentials" was about his diploma or vita or something, and maybe they have some kind of fancy hologram decoration that doesn't exist in the 24th century. I wondered how Picard could possibly be sure they're real, since he doesn't know the technology used to make them, and he can already assume the guy's from the future.

 

[Timo]

Which is why the "leaving his mark in history in a very subtle way" approach works best: there is no possibility of forging involved, as the mark in itself proves the guy in front of you is a bona fide time traveler who visited many, many eras, and it appears to follow he is the benign if diligent and industrious sort, too, since apparently he only ever left that mark and nothing else.

So how would our thief forge the credentials anyway? Basically, he'd have to assume the identity of the real scholar somehow. So if the scholar's face appears in past records, the thief would have to customize his face. Certainly doable - but also something Picard could check, discreetly if need be.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

I presume it would be in a database accessible onboard the time travel pod. It makes a little sense that 24th century Starfleet might prepare a code or something for "time travelers" beyond a certain date to use, and Matt Frewer's character had this code. It would be useless in the 22nd century, but by Picard's time, they'd dealt with time travel enough that preparing some type of credential was deemed necessary in the expectation that you are approached by a future agent. Maybe it's something Archer developed in secret or the DTI invented in the 2260s in the course of developing their own historical research missions for a brief time.

And then Rasmussen just mentions the military Junta that took over the Starfleet/Federation between 2519 and 2526, and that systematically destroyed nearly all old databases so that people wouldn't find inspiration in the past. Or how the Borg (of which he could have read in the pod's database general history section) practically ruined all computer systems in the mid 25th century by a pernicious virus, even old databases couldn't be trusted anymore, and how they had to be rebuild all systems from scratch, whatever. He can make up any bullshit excuse for not having that in his database.

I assumed that the talk about "credentials" was about his diploma or vita or something, and maybe they have some kind of fancy hologram decoration that doesn't exist in the 24th century. I wondered how Picard could possibly be sure they're real, since he doesn't know the technology used to make them, and he can already assume the guy's from the future.

Yeah, that's what I meant. If I went back to the 18th century and showed them, say, my 1998 master's degree diploma, how could they ever falsify it as a fake, or confirm it was real - except perhaps by directly and extensively testing my knowledge on the area I had that master's degree in? (and even that would be hard since there has been quite a bit of evolution in the topic over the last 300 years).

 

[Timo]

OTOH, if a time traveler wished to present credentials, this very issue would be foremost in his mind. So he'd really cater for the lowest common denominator, and make something even a caveman could understand and agree upon.

Confessing to being a time traveler would probably be an extremely unwise move in most cases, though. So the credentials would primarily exist in order to bail the traveler out of a tricky situation. Some sort of an explicit display of benevolence would thus be in order; a journal of one's Quantum Leaps, with illustrations, would probably serve the purpose. Especially if it could be edited so that a Calvinist, a Nazi and a Colonial Aqua-Vegetarian would each find the traveler's respective verifiable actions to his ideological liking.

...What else would?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[at Quark's]

I'd see that working for him: he could be doing damage, but demonstrably isn't."

If I were Picard, I would already take that photograph of him shaking hands with Stalin as evidence of tampering and doing damage. At the very least, it doesn't show an attitude of going out of your way to not influence the timeline.

(Then again, I would already know that since the guy just beamed on board and told everyone he was from the future, rather than doing invisible surveillance.)

If you absolutely must make credentials by leaving your mark in the past, there should be less obtrusive ways of doing so. Then again, I agree with you that you would also want something nobody can overlook, should the need arise.

 

[Timo]

If I were Picard, I would already take that photograph of him shaking hands with Stalin as evidence of tampering and doing damage. At the very least, it doesn't show an attitude of going out of your way to not influence the timeline.

(Then again, I would already know that since the guy just beamed on board and told everyone he was from the future, rather than doing invisible surveillance.)

Proving a negative would be difficult, though. Just saying "I don't kill" is much less credible than the trope of the hero making the lightning-fast ninja move of putting a blade on your throat and then saying "I don't kill". That's showing an attitude in a way that actually counts.

As for doing damage, Picard might not personally be a veteran of time adventures where the random shaking of hands or blowing up of a building or stealing 2½ whales has no effect on the greater timeline - but his Starfleet would be. Time in Trek is robust, possibly exactly as the result of all the time travel going on. And in any case, most of the people to whom the time traveler would have to justify his continuing survival would be interested not in noninterference, but in a positive rationale to the time traveling. Being able to demonstrate small good deeds, such as perhaps this handshake distracting Uncle Joe from signing yet another death warrant, would be a credential worth presenting.

If you absolutely must make credentials by leaving your mark in the past, there should be less obtrusive ways of doing so. Then again, I agree with you that you would also want something nobody can overlook, should the need arise.

Being truly obtrusive is fairly difficult, though. People ITRW or in the Trek universe may not be quite as gullible as in, say, the Doctor Whoverse. But the world can still easily accommodate a Nicola Tesla or a Leonardo da Vinci and turn a blind eye to the blatant fact that they are aliens or immortals, until an illustrated journal or autobiography signed by them presents the indisputable proof.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Trekker4747]

I had always gotten the impression that Rasmussen was just sort of BSing the entire time, cold reading and just playing back to everyone stuff he'd been able to pick-up but presenting as if it was just pure history to him. He had no idea where he was, what was going on, what was going to happen. Nothing. The pod showing up where/when it does is just story convenience.

He never gives any details about the mission and he acts like it's the most important thing to happen in this time period when, really, it was pretty unimportant mission.

As for Picard "verifying [his] credentials" I just sort of took that as Picard employing a figure of speech as naturally there'd be no "credentials" for Rasmussen to present and he wouldn't exactly fit them. Rasmussen was just able to, somehow, BS his way through a conversation with Picard that Picard felt that Rasmussen was who he claimed to be.

 

[Tribble Threat]

That makes a great deal of sense. The credentials thing baffled me, so if Picard didn't mean it literally, it's much easier to wrap my head around. I also completely agree that Rasmussen was just BSing.
But little question, when you say "just story convenience", do you think the time machine went there completely randomly? I think the scientist who owned the time machine programmed it to that time and date deliberately because the Enterprise was there, and maybe it was an easy place to observe the Enterprise for some reason. Or maybe there was something about that place that was relevant to the scientist's research project, but the Enterprise being there was relevant.

 

[Mojochi]

I think the scientist who owned the time machine programmed it to that time and date deliberately because the Enterprise was there, and maybe it was an easy place to observe the Enterprise for some reason. Or maybe there was something about that place that was relevant to the scientist's research project, but the Enterprise being there was relevant.

Or even better, maybe it's best for the time & place to visit to NOT be relevant. I too think the ship must've had some kind of outlined trip, to that place & time, set by the real owner, that Rasmussen decided to use for a scheme.

However, If I were a legit time traveling historian, who wanted to see a historic ship & crew going about their business, I might deliberately want to observe them at a time that wasn't in the midst of great historic upheaval. You might want to be in the crowd to see Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, but you probably wouldn't want to be there to see Custer's last stand. It's just a bad idea to go tramping around in that.

I'd actually look for good spots of intrigue that would have very little potential for mishap, paradox, or endangerment, but still offer a solid learning experience for a historian