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How come SciFi always recycles the 'false gods' premise?

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I said TRUTH, not fact.

That which is factual is true. That which is not factual is false. Only in the interpretation of facts can there be accurate and inaccurate conclusions.

Uh, sorry, but faith is believing something is real despite no evidence to support it, or evidence to the contrary. That's irrational, whether you like it or not.

Absolutely. If faith followed any kind of rational epistemology, then there would never have been a need to create a category of "revealed" knowledge seperate from all others which is, for some reason, immune to the standard requirements of evidence and verification.

No, the difference between science and faith is the difference between objective and subjective experience. A "pure science" mindset would have one dismiss everything that is of a non-material or internal nature. The trouble one gets into, though, is this...do you trust your own perceptions by which you take in those perceptions you consider to be objective? If so, on what grounds? That such perceptions are valid is an act of faith, as you cannot step outside of your own self to verify them.

Solipsism.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
It is possible to approach faith rationally, by saving it for areas which are beyond science or reason, such as questions of the soul and the afterlife, and accepting reason and science for more concrete matters such as evolution and the origins and nature of the universe. Irrational faith is something like insisting that every word of the Bible is literal fact even when all the evidence in the world says otherwise. That's blind faith, and it's not the only kind of faith there is.

That's why, despite what some people in this thread have said, there is not any fundamental antagonism toward religion in science fiction. The only antagonism is toward blind, irrational, or ignorant manifestations of faith and religion, the kinds that clash with scientific thought rather than coexisting with it. Frankly I'm seeing a lot of blind faith from the people who are continuing to insist that such antagonism exists even after they've been given multiple examples of SF that incorporates or explores religious notions.
 
Trent--

Solipsism--specifically epistomological solipsism--is indeed the concept I'm getting at, and while it is often treated as absurd to bring up solipsism at all, it IS a possibility that has to be contended with in some form or fashion in order for us to function.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemological_solipsism

This is the position that I take, that ultimately one must choose whether or not the evidence of the senses is to be taken as valid, yet from an internal perspective there is no clearcut grounds to choose either way. What I do know is my own existence. (Basically, I start at the same place Descartes does, when it comes to my approach to the universe.) It then becomes an act of faith to accept that what is outside oneself is indeed valid and to act that way. Yet people call THIS sort of faith rational and the reality of subjective experience irrational.

(A broader introduction to solipsism and the questions it raises: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism )

One can take a position for or against this, but I felt this would explain where I am coming from.
 
No, the difference between science and faith is the difference between objective and subjective experience. A "pure science" mindset would have one dismiss everything that is of a non-material or internal nature. The trouble one gets into, though, is this...do you trust your own perceptions by which you take in those perceptions you consider to be objective? If so, on what grounds? That such perceptions are valid is an act of faith, as you cannot step outside of your own self to verify them.

Yet this is considered rational and the acceptance of other subjective experiences is not. It is more rational to state a disagreement with somebody's subjective perspective, than to say that they are irrational for even thinking about said perspective.

Nope. It's not an act of faith, indeed, scientists do NOT trust their own experiences, subjective or otherwise. That's why results must be repeatable by other scientists completely independent from you in entirely different places on the earth. Only when results are the same for everyone, can one safely trust what you've experienced is correct. Indeed, a TRUE scientist, would not only entirely trust it even then, but would say, this must be the way things are, until more and/or better data and a more and/or better theories come along to prove it wrong.

Sadly, this last seems to be lacking in most "scientists" these days.
 
Indeed, a TRUE scientist, would not only entirely trust it even then, but would say, this must be the way things are, until more and/or better data and a more and/or better theories come along to prove it wrong.

Sadly, this last seems to be lacking in most "scientists" these days.

What are you basing that on?
 
It is possible to approach faith rationally, by saving it for areas which are beyond science or reason, such as questions of the soul and the afterlife,

No such thing. Anything that exists has dimension. Anything with dimension is measurable. Anything measurable falls under the perview of scientific observation. Hence, nothing exists that is beyond science--only things which are beyond our current level of science.

Frankly I'm seeing a lot of blind faith from the people who are continuing to insist that such antagonism exists even after they've been given multiple examples of SF that incorporates or explores religious notions.

That's because exceptions don't disprove general trends (and I never said SF never incorporates or explores religious notions--I was commenting on their depiction). You might as well say that the existence of Log Cabin Republicans disproves that antagonism between Republicans and the queer community exists.

One can take a position for or against this, but I felt this would explain where I am coming from.

If you are truly a solipsist, then you have no need for convincing me or anybody else of the accuracy of your claims, because we are at best zombies, at worst figments of your own imagination, and your posts are reduced to exercises in futility.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
No, the difference between science and faith is the difference between objective and subjective experience. A "pure science" mindset would have one dismiss everything that is of a non-material or internal nature. The trouble one gets into, though, is this...do you trust your own perceptions by which you take in those perceptions you consider to be objective? If so, on what grounds? That such perceptions are valid is an act of faith, as you cannot step outside of your own self to verify them.

Yet this is considered rational and the acceptance of other subjective experiences is not. It is more rational to state a disagreement with somebody's subjective perspective, than to say that they are irrational for even thinking about said perspective.

Nope. It's not an act of faith, indeed, scientists do NOT trust their own experiences, subjective or otherwise. That's why results must be repeatable by other scientists completely independent from you in entirely different places on the earth. Only when results are the same for everyone, can one safely trust what you've experienced is correct. Indeed, a TRUE scientist, would not only entirely trust it even then, but would say, this must be the way things are, until more and/or better data and a more and/or better theories come along to prove it wrong.

Sadly, this last seems to be lacking in most "scientists" these days.

This still doesn't help you get around the problem posed by epistomological solipsism. You could easily perceive that others are getting the same results as you--but your senses are telling you all of that (you must read it or hear it somewhere, or otherwise receive the information).

You and I agree that when it comes to the material world, that is the means by which a theory is proven. And we do both accept the input of the senses--to Trent, I am not the sort of person who believes I am the only being in the universe: there is a difference between that sort of solipsism and epistomological solipsism (the latter being that you simply cannot prove that anything but one's perceptions are real). I choose, though without conclusive proof, to accept the reality of the physical universe and those in it, to include you because it is the most logical possibility.

However, I challenge you guys to consider why you make the decision you do: why have you accepted that the input of your senses is valid?
 
The discussion, fascinating as it honestly is, again veers away from the thread's actual topic. You don't want to do that. Really, you don't.
;)
 
Neroon--I would've PM'ed this question, but since I don't have PM privileges yet, I'm going to ask it here. Should we be starting up a thread over in Miscellaneous to continue this element of the conversation? Since there is no flaming going on, it at least seems viable...
 
Neroon--I would've PM'ed this question, but since I don't have PM privileges yet, I'm going to ask it here. Should we be starting up a thread over in Miscellaneous to continue this element of the conversation? Since there is no flaming going on, it at least seems viable...
Oh, it is definitely viable, and I was sincere when I said it's fascinating. By all means start a thread focused on that over in Miscellaneous, and then post a link in here to that thread.

About PM's ... are you sure you don't just have that function turned off? Go to your User CP, the link for which you can see on the far left side towards the top of any screen here. Click on it, and on the left you should find a link called "Edit Options". Click on THAT link, and mid-way down the screen you will find a section called "Private Messaging". Make sure that's enabled.
 
This still doesn't help you get around the problem posed by epistomological solipsism. You could easily perceive that others are getting the same results as you--but your senses are telling you all of that (you must read it or hear it somewhere, or otherwise receive the information).

Epistomological solipsism is an exercise in futility. Since if nothing is real, everything is an illusion, then talking to anyone is useless, talking about anything is useless, discussing anything is useless, any experiment is useless, everything is simply useless. After all, none of it, is real, nothing you ever do can mean anything, including debates on it. It is therefor illogical to even debate the notion; for that debate too, is useless. Anyone who goes with solipsism and even bothers to talk to anyone, especially about that, is someone who is contradicting him or herself.

You and I agree that when it comes to the material world, that is the means by which a theory is proven. And we do both accept the input of the senses--to Trent, I am not the sort of person who believes I am the only being in the universe: there is a difference between that sort of solipsism and epistomological solipsism (the latter being that you simply cannot prove that anything but one's perceptions are real). I choose, though without conclusive proof, to accept the reality of the physical universe and those in it, to include you because it is the most logical possibility.

However, I challenge you guys to consider why you make the decision you do: why have you accepted that the input of your senses is valid?
Ah, no actually, one's perceptions cannot be proven as real at all - in fact, if everything is false around us, they are indeed false. Indeed, we KNOW for a certain FACT that our perceptions are FALSE. After all, we do not see atoms and electrons and positrons and such, we see a solid object. We feel as if we touch that solid object when we do so, when in fact, we do not. It's the electromagnetic forces of the atoms that we and the object are made off, that repel each other - the atoms/you/the object, do in fact, never touch at all. Indeed, seeing as the only way we could somehow quantify our perceptions is to use the things we cannot prove exist, our perceptions cannot be proven to be real either. After all, if we're trapped inside of a Matrix-like contraption, all our perceptions are simply false data fed directly into our brains.

In short; if we go by epistomological solipsism we cannot be sure of anything, so any debate on anything is pointless, we might as well shoot ourselves in the head. Which is the reason why I don't bother with it. As I said: it's and exercise in futility.

Indeed, a TRUE scientist, would not only entirely trust it even then, but would say, this must be the way things are, until more and/or better data and a more and/or better theories come along to prove it wrong.

Sadly, this last seems to be lacking in most "scientists" these days.

What are you basing that on?

Because of the reason that anyone brings up theories that are multi-dimensional in nature and points out anomalies that can't be explained by present day theories, but can be explained by those multi-dimensional theories (except when it's that established ridiculous string theory) the dissertation on it, will not even be opened and read. It will be sent back unopened, even if inside it, it hold's the writings of present day Newton, that has theories, experiments to support them, and show those dimensions are real and quantifiable and useable. It will all be sent back, unopened.

That's not science, that is blind faith, refusing to look through the telescope.
 
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Uh, sorry, but faith is believing something is real despite no evidence to support it, or evidence to the contrary. That's irrational, whether you like it or not. And nobody believes the only truth comes from "guys in lab coats wielding test tubes". Indeed not, it comes from people genuinely willing to examine and observe nature.

So, anything that can be observed in nature, ie science, is the only source of truth? The scientific method is the only way to experience life? All else is irrational?

Well, someone needs to tell all campus philosophy departments as well as theology studies that they are obsolete.

:guffaw:
 
That which is factual is true. That which is not factual is false. Only in the interpretation of facts can there be accurate and inaccurate conclusions.

But not all facts are a matter of physical scientific inquiry.
 
It is possible to approach faith rationally, by saving it for areas which are beyond science or reason, such as questions of the soul and the afterlife, and accepting reason and science for more concrete matters such as evolution and the origins and nature of the universe. Irrational faith is something like insisting that every word of the Bible is literal fact even when all the evidence in the world says otherwise. That's blind faith, and it's not the only kind of faith there is.

Yup. And the idea that only science has anything useful and truthful to tell us about reality is just as big a statement of faith as anything else. And it is closeminded arrogance that tries to dress it up as more than it is.

That's why, despite what some people in this thread have said, there is not any fundamental antagonism toward religion in science fiction.

Nope, just some science fiction fans.

:D
 
stonester1 .... three in a row? You need to remember there is an Edit button.


And please everyone .... for the last time, this thread is about science fiction's approach to the "false gods" type of story. If you want to continue the philosophical debate regarding the merits of science and religion, feel free to start one in the Miscellaneous forum.
 
Okay, getting back on topic... I'm surprised at the perception that the use of "false gods" in science fiction is somehow a rejection of religious views. To me, it seems that the exposure and discrediting of false deities can be taken as reinforcing traditional Judeo-Christian monotheism, and indeed is often intended that way. Look at Star Trek's "Who Mourns for Adonais." When the alien Apollo asks if humanity no longer honors its gods, plural, Kirk replies, "We find the one sufficient." Now, some have tried to reconcile this with Roddenberry's professed rejection of religion by assuming Kirk meant some abstract concept of "the One," but it's pretty obvious that the scriptwriter meant the one God of Western theology.

And look at Stargate SG-1. We're shown aliens taking on the roles or forms of deities from Egyptian, Norse, Greek, Hindu, Chinese, Canaanite, Yoruba, Maya, Salish, and various other mythologies, but the only time Christian mythology comes into it is when we see an Unas impersonating a demon or the Goa'uld Sokar identifying himself with Satan. Of all the religious figures in the world, only Jehovah, Jesus, the Archangels, etc. seem to have been exempt from alien impersonation. If anything, the implication there is that the authenticity of those figures is not in question.

I mean, isn't this what Christian missionaries used to do around the world? Go around and convince people that their various gods were false and that only the Christian God was real? So isn't fiction that portrays alien gods as false, or that exposes non-Christian gods as alien impostors, a continuation of that rather than a contradiction to it?
 
You know, I don't think that allowing for the existence of higher powers automatically codifies anyone's dogma, either. I think acknowledgement/awareness of such in a fictional setting is enough.

That again closely approximates our reality as well.



Okay, getting back on topic... I'm surprised at the perception that the use of "false gods" in science fiction is somehow a rejection of religious views. To me, it seems that the exposure and discrediting of false deities can be taken as reinforcing traditional Judeo-Christian monotheism, and indeed is often intended that way. Look at Star Trek's "Who Mourns for Adonais." When the alien Apollo asks if humanity no longer honors its gods, plural, Kirk replies, "We find the one sufficient." Now, some have tried to reconcile this with Roddenberry's professed rejection of religion by assuming Kirk meant some abstract concept of "the One," but it's pretty obvious that the scriptwriter meant the one God of Western theology.

And look at Stargate SG-1. We're shown aliens taking on the roles or forms of deities from Egyptian, Norse, Greek, Hindu, Chinese, Canaanite, Yoruba, Maya, Salish, and various other mythologies, but the only time Christian mythology comes into it is when we see an Unas impersonating a demon or the Goa'uld Sokar identifying himself with Satan. Of all the religious figures in the world, only Jehovah, Jesus, the Archangels, etc. seem to have been exempt from alien impersonation. If anything, the implication there is that the authenticity of those figures is not in question.

I mean, isn't this what Christian missionaries used to do around the world? Go around and convince people that their various gods were false and that only the Christian God was real? So isn't fiction that portrays alien gods as false, or that exposes non-Christian gods as alien impostors, a continuation of that rather than a contradiction to it?
 
Two notes---

First, putting Old Testament religion on screen has been done, in Bill Paxton's horror movie Frailty. It's also been done in The Rapture, with Mimi Rogers and David Duchovny, also a horror movie. I think there was a vampire movie that made play with a Jewish character appalled to learn that the crucifix had supernatural power (The Keep?) And there's some tacky horror movie series about hot young stud angels going on killing sprees to prevent Armageddon, some of which have Christopher Walken in cameos. Demi Moore in Seventh Sign also had that sort of thing too, I think. Those are the kinds of movies the original poster seems to want. They are correctly considered horror movies, as the kind of Christianity they espouse is quite horrible. The inadvertent implications are happily dismissed because they are just horror movies. Such would be highly offensive in SF. In other words, SF recycles false gods because portraying the Christian God would make him look bad in most people's eyes, even if the original poster has a taste for "dark and gritty" Christianity.

Second, introspection tells me that my dreams are in some sense my creation. When I try to remember the dreams, I am struck by how unreal they are by light of day. The only reason my mind would create an inferior reality at night would be to deceive myself, which truly is an insane proposition. It is also obvious that my imagination is not good enough to create the illusion of a world of object and people. The inability to prove the existence of exterior reality really shows the inadequacy of the mind to somehow create an external reality, to put it another way. Solipsism is nonsense.
 
Neroon--I had a message for awhile telling me as a new member, I wouldn't have PMing privileges for 2 weeks, but that just went away all of a sudden even though it's only been 4 days. And suddenly I'm able to have an avatar. (Not that I'm complaining--I'm glad for the ability!)

OK...I just pulled the whole "rationality of faith and science / solipsism" thing into another thread.

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=1926528#post1926528
 
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