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How come SciFi always recycles the 'false gods' premise?

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I Don't know, I thought Babylon 5's take was less "False God" and more "outgrowing the old gods" and eventually becoming God ourselves.
It should be noted that neither the Shadows or Vorlons were ever depicted as gods. The Vorlons had manipulated the younger races to view them favorably, but not as gods, as secondary religious characters such as angels. It was more about outgrowing ones parents, not overthrowing false gods.

As for why SF never portrays a 'real' god, how would you come up with a definition that satisfys everybody? For instance, the definition provided by the original poster doesn't work for me at all since I've never understood how a real god (the sort that creates stuff like atoms and galaxies) would ever care about being obeyed or worshipped. No matter what you come up with, it'll be a false god to somebody.

Jan
 
Okay. But you haven't stated anything that puts it in the category of science fiction in the first place. It already falls under "fantasy" and "religious fiction", among other things.

The same thing that puts the 'false gods/magical ascended beings' which are currently in just about every SciFi show in the category of science fiction. They are every bit as magical and unscientific as a real God would be. Therefore if they are fair game to put in SciFi then a real God should be as well.

I respect your points though that due to money considerations and not wanting to offend any segment of the audience by portraying a different version of a real God than how they believe a real God should behave, that is probably why no one has the balls to put a real God in a SciFi TV show or movie.

IMO they should at least retire the tired old 'false god' premise though. That cliche is way too worn out. It compounds the problem since due to the aforementioned factors any time any character on a SciFi show claims to be God or gods, the viewer will already know 100% for sure right off the bat exactly how that story is gonna play out. :rolleyes:
 
They are every bit as magical and unscientific as a real God would be.

No they aren't those kind of beings on television shows are in the end real beings in that reality but you can't prove or disprove the existance of God. And in any event the majority of writers for television don't believe in God so their aren't likely to write about God being a real being if htey themselves don't believe in the first place.
 
Because all Gods are false Gods and maybe the creators of the show are trying to get that across the thick head people who make up 85% of the population of the planet.,
 
Hmm, it basically sounds like the OP is just offended that not enough scifi characters believe in God or practice religion. And that the only gods that seem to exist in these worlds are "false gods."

Something tells me considerations of plot and story have little to do with it...

What you said is part of it. I do find such biased storytelling to be offensive since it only shows one side of the coin. Since it inherently depicts any sort of gods that emerge as false and evil, leaving no possibility for a real, good God or gods to exist.

But there are also plot and story considerations as well. Since I've seen the exact same storyline repeated so often in so many different SciFi productions, it's terribly uninteresting to keep seeing it done again. It is vastly uncreative on the writers' parts to not come up with something new and original. I guess they figure that instead of making new, original content that has never been done in SciFi before, it's so much simpler to instead just copy and paste the stale old 'false gods' cliche and use it as the content of their production.
 
Hmm, it basically sounds like the OP is just offended that not enough scifi characters believe in God or practice religion. And that the only gods that seem to exist in these worlds are "false gods."

Something tells me considerations of plot and story have little to do with it...

Yeah, it's reminding me of the people who say they want religion in their science fiction, and then people point out lots of religion in science fiction, and after a long back-and-forth it turns out they mean that they want SF to vindicate their own personal belief system, not anyone else's.
 
Hmm, it basically sounds like the OP is just offended that not enough scifi characters believe in God or practice religion. And that the only gods that seem to exist in these worlds are "false gods."

Something tells me considerations of plot and story have little to do with it...

Yeah, it's reminding me of the people who say they want religion in their science fiction, and then people point out lots of religion in science fiction, and after a long back-and-forth it turns out they mean that they want SF to vindicate their own personal belief system, not anyone else's.

It would be much more productive to respond to the original poster directly, instead of the unnecessary third person. Otherwise it comes off as vaguely insulting, and in a sensitive subject such as this that does NOT bode well.
 
I Don't know, I thought Babylon 5's take was less "False God" and more "outgrowing the old gods" and eventually becoming God ourselves.
It should be noted that neither the Shadows or Vorlons were ever depicted as gods. The Vorlons had manipulated the younger races to view them favorably, but not as gods, as secondary religious characters such as angels. It was more about outgrowing ones parents, not overthrowing false gods.

Ah, but many of the angels mentioned in the bible and secondary sources; the names; you'll find, are the many gods of earlier religions. The (lesser) gods of those religions all carry the names of the angels. It seems then, that originally they did present themselves as gods, and humanity (and I suppose other species) quickly outgrew them, invented a super god above them, and relegated them to the imaginary super god's servants.

Which indeed, fits with Thirdspace's line (paraphrasing): "Have enough people worship you as gods, and you start to believe them. The arrogance we had, that we could think we could go to heaven and sit at god's side as equals."

Hmm, it basically sounds like the OP is just offended that not enough scifi characters believe in God or practice religion. And that the only gods that seem to exist in these worlds are "false gods."

Something tells me considerations of plot and story have little to do with it...

What you said is part of it. I do find such biased storytelling to be offensive since it only shows one side of the coin. Since it inherently depicts any sort of gods that emerge as false and evil, leaving no possibility for a real, good God or gods to exist.

A real, good god or gods to exist? Your description of what a real god is, is disgusting and evil. If that is a real god, there is not such thing as a real, good god. They are all, every single last one, pure evil.

But there are also plot and story considerations as well. Since I've seen the exact same storyline repeated so often in so many different SciFi productions, it's terribly uninteresting to keep seeing it done again. It is vastly uncreative on the writers' parts to not come up with something new and original. I guess they figure that instead of making new, original content that has never been done in SciFi before, it's so much simpler to instead just copy and paste the stale old 'false gods' cliche and use it as the content of their production.

First of all, it's terribly difficult to create a genuinely new original story and story points. Just about everything has already been done. After all, your idea is simply copying any old fantasy story and "Left Behind", the OT, and the Quran.

So, if they indeed come up with a brand new original story and story-line, it will NOT be one with "real gods".
 
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Hmm, it basically sounds like the OP is just offended that not enough scifi characters believe in God or practice religion. And that the only gods that seem to exist in these worlds are "false gods."

Something tells me considerations of plot and story have little to do with it...

What you said is part of it. I do find such biased storytelling to be offensive since it only shows one side of the coin. Since it inherently depicts any sort of gods that emerge as false and evil, leaving no possibility for a real, good God or gods to exist.

But there are also plot and story considerations as well. Since I've seen the exact same storyline repeated so often in so many different SciFi productions, it's terribly uninteresting to keep seeing it done again. It is vastly uncreative on the writers' parts to not come up with something new and original. I guess they figure that instead of making new, original content that has never been done in SciFi before, it's so much simpler to instead just copy and paste the stale old 'false gods' cliche and use it as the content of their production.

Even if what you say is true, I think the problem here would lie in the fact that you watch too much television.

If you turned off your TV set and read a book once in a while, or even went out to a movie, you'd discover that SF is full of "real" gods and all sorts of interesting theological speculation.

You can start with the work of Arthur C. Clarke. Read his short stories "The Nine Billion Names of God" and "The Star". Then watch 2001: A Space Odyssey.

After that, you can try James Blish's Black Easter and The Day After Judgment.

From there, your options are limitless. Pick up a copy of Dangerous Visions and read "Shall the Dust Praise Thee" by Damon Knight and "Faith of our Fathers" by Philip K. Dick. Read Lester del Rey's "For I am a Jealous People".

Even the Matrix trilogy features a real messiah, in the form of Neo.

But frankly, even if we consider television alone, I'm not convinced that what you say is true. IMO, your complaint has no merit at all.
 
Actually, now that I think about it, there have been some exceptions. I haven't seen all of the adaptation of "The Stand", but I've seen parts of it. Isn't there a God figure who behaves that way?

Also-- I really hesitate to give it any credit, but the TNG episode "Justice" had a God-figure who was treated exactly as you describe.
 
How come SciFi always recycles the 'false gods' premise yet never has the balls to use a 'real God'?

Actually there's a fair amount of genre programming that at least hints at the existence of an actual deity. Quantum Leap strongly implied that the hand of God was behind Sam Beckett's journeys. George Pal's War of the Worlds implies divine intervention as the means of humanity's salvation, and M. Night Shyamalan's Signs makes it more explicit (though far more contrived and awkward).

I'm getting really sick of just about every SciFi show in existence, and often movies too, recycling the premise of 'false gods'. Star Trek: TOS has episodes that deal with this. Star Trek V was pretty much nothing other than this.

Well, see, the problem there isn't SF, it's TV and movies. As Silvercrest hinted, TV and movie executives are generally quite reluctant to air programming with overtly religious themes, for fear of stirring up controversy and driving away advertisers. Even when a show does revolve around, say, angels as in Touched by an Angel or the afterlife as in Dead Like Me, the theology tends to be sanitized and vague, and the big questions are avoided. Whenever Buffy or Angel experienced Hell or Heaven, it was described in terms of being a hell-like or heaven-like "dimension," skirting the question of exactly what religion's interpretation of the afterlife was being referenced. And you'll find more shows featuring the Devil (such as Reaper) than God, not because networks are satanic (although they often seem to be), but because a depiction of God is more likely to be seen as blasphemous, disrespectful, etc. The only time you ever seen God as an actual onscreen character is when it's a comedy, and even then people can be easily offended, especially if they're on the religious right (note the 4-week run of the animated sitcom God, the Devil and Bob). Ironically, the conservative Christian movement has done more than anyone to keep God off the airwaves, since they're so intolerant of any interpretation of God other than their own.

Star Trek V is a classic example of this. Shatner wanted the movie to be about the crew actually meeting God, but there was no way the studio would ever go for that, because it would be far too controversial. So it had to be toned down to "the crew meets a false God." Not because it was what the storytellers wanted, but because it was all the studio executives would permit them to do.

Babylon 5, DS9, the Stargate shows, nuBSG etc. etc. all seem to have recycled the 'false gods' idea ad nauseaum. Enough is enough already.

That's a fallacious argument. You're taking things that are only vaguely similar and reinterpreting them as the same thing. DS9 never proposed that the false gods were from any Earth religion; rather, it depicted an alien race that had programmed its servant races to worship it. And yet at the same time, it increasingly implied that the Bajoran Prophets might be genuine gods. DS9 was one of the few SFTV shows that's been daring enough to embrace an exploration of religious ideas, so you're being unfairly hard on it.

And the same goes for BSG. Although there are differing beliefs among the characters over whose gods are genuine, those are merely the personal beliefs of the characters, not a confirmed truth within the show. If anything, BSG has consistently embraced a magic-realist approach to storytelling, with destiny, prophecy, miracles, and apparently divine guidance/intervention being integral parts of the storyline. They are definitely embracing religion more fully than just about any show on TV -- and part of exploring religion is exploring difference in belief, different factions disputing whose gods are real. So you've totally misread BSG if you think it's avoiding religious issues.

As for B5, it did imply that the Vorlons had meddled in various races' histories and programmed those races to perceive the Vorlons in the form of their own deities. But that was a minor element of the saga.

So really, it's only Stargate SG-1 that's made a central issue of the "false gods" idea. You're imagining this to be far more ubiquitous than it actually is, and overlooking instances where religious ideas are being sincerely explored.


Why do you think no SciFi (at least that I'm aware of, correct me if I'm wrong) has the balls to present a real God or gods who are exactly what they say they are and that's that? DS9 sort of came close to doing this with it's portrayal of the Prophets, but even so they stopped short since they are ultimately just mortal wormhole aliens, not real gods.

Ahh, but are they? That's what Starfleet believes, but the Bajorans believe differently, and the producers refused to take a definitive stance on who was right. The intelligent scholar of religion doesn't claim there's only one truth, but acknowledges that there can be merit in multiple interpretations of the universe. The Hindus used the analogy of the blind men feeling different parts of an elephant -- each one perceived a different thing, but they all grasped only part of the greater truth.
 
It would be much more productive to respond to the original poster directly, instead of the unnecessary third person. Otherwise it comes off as vaguely insulting, and in a sensitive subject such as this that does NOT bode well.

The original poster has been responded to, several times, and his responses (or lack thereof) raise very legitimate questions about his underlying motivations. I think it would be much more productive to allow the conversation to flow without micromanagement.

Actually, now that I think about it, there have been some exceptions. I haven't seen all of the adaptation of "The Stand", but I've seen parts of it. Isn't there a God figure who behaves that way?

Yes, but "The Stand" isn't science-fiction; it's horror, with a side of theological fantasy.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
The original poster has been responded to, several times, and his responses (or lack thereof) raise very legitimate questions about his underlying motivations. I think it would be much more productive to allow the conversation to flow without micromanagement.
Then you need to read the couple of posts which I quoted in mine, hence the reason for my cautioning. Some have responded directly, while others have not.

This thread has excellent potential and is not going to be allowed to devolve into petty insults and biased bickering or any other kind of histrionics, which all too often accompany discussions centered around the differences in religion.
 
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SG-1 is the main "False-Gods" show, but in some cases it's a bit of a grey area - did the gu'auld start the whole god thing, or did they impersonate deities that the ancient religions had? Yu never even impersonated a god, but was an emperor.

B5 didnt discuss gods much at all, and NuBSg have a pretty well defined religion, with faithful followers (Roslin), and athiests (Adama).

The only genre shows to really go to town with "real" gods were Hercules and Xena, and certainly not all the gods were evil. Ares was of course, but hey that's his job (boy, do I still miss Kevin Smith, a shame his career was cut so tragically short). Many were pretty self-centred (Athrodite), or did their jobs (Hades).
 

Even if what you say is true, I think the problem here would lie in the fact that you watch too much television.

If you turned off your TV set and read a book once in a while, or even went out to a movie, you'd discover that SF is full of "real" gods and all sorts of interesting theological speculation.

You can start with the work of Arthur C. Clarke. Read his short stories "The Nine Billion Names of God" and "The Star". Then watch 2001: A Space Odyssey.

After that, you can try James Blish's Black Easter and The Day After Judgment.

From there, your options are limitless. Pick up a copy of Dangerous Visions and read "Shall the Dust Praise Thee" by Damon Knight and "Faith of our Fathers" by Philip K. Dick. Read Lester del Rey's "For I am a Jealous People".
Or even this. (It's not very long.)
 
It's simple: false gods can be built into interesting characters, but how do you make a character out of "real God." Everyone has different opinions so the minute you start to add details - God is female, for instance - a chunk of your audience rejects the notion that you're presenting anything more than yet another false god. So God ends up being a cipher who is everything and nothing, and that's not an interesting character for a story.

What could be interesting, and I don't see much of: the storyteller decides who God is and tells us on no uncertain terms. A fat, bellicose, profane, flatulent 100-foot-tall lesbian for example. If anyone doesn't think that's really God, that's their problem because that definitely is God in this story.

But this approach is more likely to appear in novels, where there's more of an assumption of a single writer promoting their own subjective view of reality, than in movies or especially in TV, where we're conditioned to expect more objectivity and no strong writer's voice to come through.

The conflict would be between the lower forms of life, not the lower forms of life trying to defeat God (maybe they could try for an episode or two just to establish how futile it is, and that's it). God would just intervene in their affairs from time to time, perhaps giving favorable blessings to those who serve it, and smiting or afflicting with bad things those who do not.
That sort of God would be a useless character in a story. His/Her/Its only purpose would be to swoop in and provide an ass-save when the writers paint themselves into a corner. Adding an arbitrary factor to a story doesn't result in good things that I've ever noticed.

Here's an example of a good presentation of God in a story (in this case a movie, Dogma): Alanis Morisette played God as a child-like, abstracted being. Very odd and most likely satirical in intent, but interesting. However, God did not serve any purpose in the story as a character and appeared only at the end, almost as a punch line.
 
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