• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

How can people submit ideas to studios when this can happen?

ReadyAndWilling

Fleet Captain
so i really like the idea of people being able to submit ideas to studios and being able to have their visions of a show brought to life with the full force of a network backing them.

but then i hear about things DS9 and B5:

The pilot episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (DS9) aired just weeks before the debut of Babylon 5. Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski indicated that Paramount was aware of his concept as early as 1989,[56] when he attempted to sell the show to the studio, and provided them with the series bible, pilot script, artwork, lengthy character background histories, and plot synopses for the first 22 episodes.[57][58] Paramount passed on Babylon 5, but later announced Deep Space Nine was in development after Warner Bros. announced its plans for Babylon 5. Straczynski has stated on numerous occasions that he thinks Paramount may have used his bible and scripts as the basis for DS9's first season.[59][60]
 
A mere paragraph, representing only one (understandably) subjective opinion, is hardly enough to deliver a clear verdict. In order to come to a respectable conclusion, we'd need lots of info, most of it not publicly available.
 
Just because it's alleged doesn't make it true.

The people who actually did create DS9 were insulted by those attention-seeking insinuations.
 
Also, there's a difference between similarity and plagiarism. It's just often hard to prove the difference. Babylon 5 was successful in it's own right, and so was Deep Space Nine, so it's rather pointless to complain that one was a knockoff of the other since, in the long run, it doesn't really matter anymore.

Still, it could be true. I'm not convinced either way. I'm sure that kind of thing does happen.
 
Frankly, I've always been pretty skeptical of the ideas put forth by JMS and others that DS9 was some sort of B5 rip-off that they came up with after rejecting his submission.

At most, I could see someone going "You know, there was that 'Babylon 5' concept that we rejected... it made me think, maybe a Trek show set on a station instead of a ship could be interesting." But my problem with the notion that he showed them his writer's bible for the show and character concepts and story arc concepts and (etc etc), and they supposedly rejected it while secretly making note of a bunch of the material to use for DS9 is that the two shows have very little in common. Beyond "sci-fi series set on a space station with more serialization", I see very little in terms of overall story content, individual episode plots, writing style, character and setting details (races, history, etc.), and other such things that is even all that similar between the two.
 
^Well, just to play Devil's advocate, you can see a similarity in the relationship between G'Kar and Londo, and the relationship between Kira and Dukat.

And for the record. I don't give a damn if one stole from the other or not. Since I love both DS9 and Babylon 5, I got two excellent sci-fi series in my DVD collection to enjoy. For me at least, the situation was a winner.
 
so i really like the idea of people being able to submit ideas to studios and being able to have their visions of a show brought to life with the full force of a network backing them.

Which is why you need an agent, since studios won't look at unsolicited pitches most of the time for fear of having to spend money defending themselves from false accusations of plagiarism.
 
How can people submit ideas to studios when this can happen?

Well, obviously, if ya get shot down by the first studio, ya go to a second studio, get your idea produced & create your own freakin' franchise with spin offs, books, movies, toys & other merchandise.
 
^ Which is exactly what JMS did. That said, I think the similarities are a bit much to just dismiss as entirely coincidental, and I can understand why JMS would be a bit upset by that. But none of the evidence publicly available is overly damning. If anything, it's more of a co-opt than a rip off.
 
Frankly, I've always been pretty skeptical of the ideas put forth by JMS and others that DS9 was some sort of B5 rip-off that they came up with after rejecting his submission.

At most, I could see someone going "You know, there was that 'Babylon 5' concept that we rejected... it made me think, maybe a Trek show set on a station instead of a ship could be interesting." But my problem with the notion that he showed them his writer's bible for the show and character concepts and story arc concepts and (etc etc), and they supposedly rejected it while secretly making note of a bunch of the material to use for DS9 is that the two shows have very little in common. Beyond "sci-fi series set on a space station with more serialization", I see very little in terms of overall story content, individual episode plots, writing style, character and setting details (races, history, etc.), and other such things that is even all that similar between the two.

There's also the fact that a main character becomes a religious figure in another species culture, but even that's pushing it. If Straczynski thought he could make a case for plagiarism, he probably would have sued Paramount already, wouldn't he?
 
^ Which is exactly what JMS did. That said, I think the similarities are a bit much to just dismiss as entirely coincidental, and I can understand why JMS would be a bit upset by that. But none of the evidence publicly available is overly damning. If anything, it's more of a co-opt than a rip off.

That's how I feel, too. Still, I like both shows (well, actually, DS9 I like, B5 I love).

This whole thing also always reminds me of how Roddenberry claimed that CBS used many of his ideas on how to produce a scifi show on a budget for "Lost in Space".
 
I'm with those who feel there's not much similarity between the two.

Frankly, there are a lot of better examples in sci-fi of two very similar shows or movies than B5 and DS9.


Yes, they both take place on a space station, there's a war, both captains are religious figures, and both are at least somewhat serialized.



But the wars were NOTHING alike, and DS9's didn't even start until late in the show's run. The political situations were nothing alike either except in a vague way between the Narn/Centauri and Cardassians/Bajorans
 
I agree with JMS. The reason I do has to do with how the entire tone of Star Trek changed with DS9. Up until that time Trek was one-ship self-contained stories with a pretty up-beat tone to them. JMS floats his B5 series bible to Paramount and then the next Trek series is totally different than any Trek before. It's on a space station with lots of politics and dark undertones. It's the closest to Space Opera any Trek has gotten and they want us to think it was just a coincidence? I'm not buying it.
 
That said, I think the similarities are a bit much to just dismiss as entirely coincidental, and I can understand why JMS would be a bit upset by that.

Oh, come on. You've got TNG and TOS and you're sitting around trying to think of another idea for a space-based show that's not on a ship. 'A space station' would be the first thing that anyone on earth would say in this situation, and that's about the only similarity between the shows.
 
That said, I think the similarities are a bit much to just dismiss as entirely coincidental, and I can understand why JMS would be a bit upset by that.

Oh, come on. You've got TNG and TOS and you're sitting around trying to think of another idea for a space-based show that's not on a ship. 'A space station' would be the first thing that anyone on earth would say in this situation, and that's about the only similarity between the shows.

Here is a short list: Click me
 
^Well, just to play Devil's advocate, you can see a similarity in the relationship between G'Kar and Londo, and the relationship between Kira and Dukat.
Honestly? No, I can't. There are some conceptual similarities (antagonistic relationship, one is from the oppressor race, the other from the oppressed), but those don't amount to a case for one being based on the other. And besides those very broad elements, I see NOTHING in the two relationships that is remotely similar.
And for the record. I don't give a damn if one stole from the other or not. Since I love both DS9 and Babylon 5, I got two excellent sci-fi series in my DVD collection to enjoy. For me at least, the situation was a winner.
Don't get me wrong; I love both shows, myself. They have their flaws, but they are still two of my favorite TV series' ever.

I just get irritated by the suggestion that has popped up so many times over the years that anything beyond perhaps the basic idea of setting the series on a station was "borrowed."
That said, I think the similarities are a bit much to just dismiss as entirely coincidental, and I can understand why JMS would be a bit upset by that.

Oh, come on. You've got TNG and TOS and you're sitting around trying to think of another idea for a space-based show that's not on a ship. 'A space station' would be the first thing that anyone on earth would say in this situation, and that's about the only similarity between the shows.

Here is a short list: Click me
I looked over that list. A lot of them are dodgy, at best.
#3: Saying that "both were near a portal to a distant place" is BS. The wormhole and the jumpgate are not even remotely similar in terms of the role they play on the show, their origins, etc.
#9: Clearly a coincidence. Sykes didn't play NEARLY the role in B5 that Yates did in DS9.
#13: Comparing the Shadows to the Founders is loltastic. The only thing they even have in common at all is "villain race."
#19: The relationship between Earth and the Minbari - or between B5 and the Minbari later in the show - is NOTHING like the relationship between the UFP and the Klingons. Not to mention that the Klingons and Minbari themselves have almost nothing in common, beyond "warrior race" (and even then, the Minbari only sort of qualify as that).
#20: Massive cheap shot. Worf (and the nature of his character) came from TNG.

etc etc.

A lot of the items on that list (and certainly all of the ones I specified above) fall into the category of "This is technically a similarity in basic concept or idea, but only if you squint really hard." It's like saying that every sci-fi story with "a large, oppressive, totalitarian regime" as the main foe is ripping off Star Wars. A lot of it, also, traces back to common tropes or concepts in sci-fi in general; many items crop up in scores of sci-fi stories. They only stick out here because of the contention that DS9 stole elements from B5.

Also, in the article below the list, there's this:
Some Trek fans contend that since the Ivanova character, a hot-headed female, didn't appear until the first season of B5, one year after the DS9 premiere, that DS9 had the lead there; however, in the original Babylon 5 pitch material there is one Laurel Chang (later Takashima in the pilot), a "no-nonsense, but with a sly sense of humor" second-in-command.
Apparently this is supposed to suggest that even though Ivanova didn't come in till later, Kira is still a B5 ripoff because of this earlier description of the B5 XO. Except Kira does not have "a sly sense of humor" and had pretty much nothing in common with Takashima.

Everything on the entire web page is pretty weak.

I acknowledge (as I did in my previous post) that it's reasonable to think that after Paramount rejected B5, someone who was aware of the concept went "But that did give me an idea: Star Trek on a space station!" But beyond that, I see nothing substantive.
 
That list is a classic example of how to construct a conspiracy theory argument.


Assume the conclusion(what you're trying to prove here is that DS9 ripped off B5) and interpret every piece of information so it supports your conclusion.



You might just as well argue that Voyager ripped off Lost In Space.
 
... You might just as well argue that Voyager ripped off Lost In Space.

No, VOY ripped off Gilligan's Island, except Janeway & crew made it back home in the end.

Wish they had wound up in orbit of the Ocampan homeworld for the finale...that would have been hysterical.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top