How can future shows retcon the errors of Star Trek Picard?

[Kamen Rider Blade]

No, that's me accurately characterizing your fantasy of a government that uses telepathy to establish literal thought police.

That's you slandering my vision of my head canon.

The future is not pre-destined. But the past most definitely is set and should be left "in stone."

That's your interpretation, I don't follow it, I don't subscribe to it.

We'll have to agreee to disagree and move on our seperate ways.

You cannot kill someone who does not exist. You can kill someone who exists presently.

Again with labeling it as killing when nobody is guranteed to be born in any given timeline. That's just luck of the draw.
There are entire people who are denied acces to being born because their parents timelines were cut short by others.

The state has a moral obligation to protect the lives of its people. This moral obligation is superseded by its moral obligation not to re-write the past, and by its moral obligation to refrain from becoming tyrannical.

Again, I don't agree, if the state failed to save it's people's lives that died of unnatural causes, the state has a moral obligation to use all it's tools to go back and fix the mistake. Any less than that is deemed a failure in my books.

And the state is not going to go all tyrannical just because you fear that little slippery slope used to save lives.

Again with your hyperbole.

We're always going to agree to disagree on this.

Holding a gun to the world and holding a gun to the past is not "safety."

Oh please, more hyperbole.

I do not. I deny others the right to change the past.

To bad, other will and have. Just like Kathryn Janeway changed time for the better.
There will be others who continue to do so moving foreward and change time for the better.

Until the 32nd Century, when it becomes far, far less prevalent.

For now, that point in time can change moving foreward, especially the time travel status.

The 32nd Century isn't a "Fixed Point" in time.

The history of human conflict combined with modern humanity's capacity for existential annihilation of the entire species.

Yet here we are, still alive and chatting on the internet.

Nation-states have literally only existed since the Peace of Westphalia.

And they will continue on into the future in various forms.
Before that, there were smaller Kingdom states, but we evolved from that era into what we are now.

It's not letting people die when they have been dead for many years already.

Time Travel is fluid, what may be the past for you, is the present for others.
That's the beauty of time travel.

Because I live in the real world and know that there is a such thing as unintended consequences that cannot be controlled, mitigated, or even anticipated.

So because of that, you blindly adhere to the Prime Directive & Temporal Prime Directive like it's dogma and the word of god.

Sorry, that just's you showing moral cowardice and inaction and using a document / dogma to justify your lack of action.

Chuck of SF Debris was right.

I don't agree, and I'll never agree to a society that lets people die pointless deaths when something can be done about it.

You using the PD & TPD as your justifications for letting them die is disgusting.

Proudly so.

At least you like that party, not my cup of tea.

You're confusing liberalism with democratic socialism.

Then how would you solve the problem?

Metaphors, dear boy.

That isn't a good metaphor.

Nobody gets to dictate your values. But the democratic state does get to dictate whether or not you enforce your values on others.

Yet Time Travel eventually becomes common enough in the 31st century that there are temporal Discriminators in HS desks.

Fortunately for the fictional characters of Star Trek, the Federation and its antecedents understand that rewriting the past is simply too dangerous to be allowed.

Yet Janeway has done it to dramatic effect. There have been 40 different Time Travel incidents by 2378, with countless more time travel adventures in the future, all the way to the Temporal War.

Imagine the hundreds of thousands to millions of time travel adventures that take place between 2378 and the 32nd century in current canon.

Even the outcome of the Temporal War where they get rid of Time Travel isn't certain.

Future Canon can always over-ride what's currently happen in the 32nd century and move on further into the future with more time travel.

Hell time travel from the future might upend the 32nd century.

Nothing is fixed in stone. That's the beauty of time travel.

The Powers That Be can always change things moving foreward with new writers who want to change things up.

Imagine if StarFleet gets to visit the 41st Millenium, imagine how drastic of a change that would be.

Nobody has said anything about not peacefully co-existing with you.

Then why do you keep attacking me?

You don't sound peaceful to me when you keep denying me and my rights to time travel and save lives.

They won't get back into existence because they didn't even exist until you've started meddling with the timeline in the first place!

Yes they did, time is constantly branching. If you choose to do one thing, time will go in that direction.
Outcomes would be different. The children you might have will be different.

If you lived, the children you might have, the children they might have will be different.

If your person died because of outside influence, you wipe away that branch of the temporal possibility tree.

You only need to look at the episode of ST:TNG.S7.E11 "Parallels" to see the branching effects of time and all the parallel quantum realities.

You keep dodging the question of why erasing people who currently exist is morally permissible in order to bring a different set of people into existence. Do they consent to changes in history that might end up erasing them?

Do the current people who died consent to dieing suddenly? I'm willing to bet that they never consented to die because the actions of some double agent who triggered a catastrophe that is orders of magnitude worse than 9/11.

Forgive me if I don't think of this as a positive portrayal of time travel when every "road not taken" you're gushing about might end up erasing me or my loved ones out of history or at the least having lives that are completely unrecognizable. That's specifically why this is a horrifying idea. It eats away at the core of your identity. And before you start again about how I couldn't possibly be affected, I'm not talking about the specific incursions your hypothetical future Federation temporal DIY hobbyists would make but rather the concept of a malleable timeline in general.

That's why time is constantly branching into countless parallel realities.

Every major decision you take, splits time into a infinite set of branching parallel realities.

You only need to see the TNG episode of "Parallels" to see that the Parallel worlds theory is very much true.

Even Ruon Tarka wants to go to a different "Parallel" Universe that doesn't have "The Burn", or the Emerald Chain.

Why can't my reality be allowed to exist, one where the UFP & StarFleet saves their people?

If you want to live in your static timeline, I'm more than happy to send you there in your Parallel Reality.

Just because something insanely risky ended up paying off at the end, it doesn't mean it was a good idea in the first place. It just means you got lucky.

Luck is one of my many skills.

And here's where fantasy unhealthily gets mixed up with reality. Stick to this being about your fantasy of what you'd do with the Trek setting. Don't make it personal. You're not offering to do diddly squat for any real people who post here, or their loved ones.

They made it personal by attacking me & my ideas.

If I had time travel powers, I'd gladly use it to help everybody on this message board by changing their past to their advantage. I'm not a selfish guy, I'm more than happy to share time traveling with everybody here if they wanted it.

But imagine the good that you could do if you applied this drive and energy into actual, real-life humanitarian causes.

I care about Star Trek, this is my passion. The Star Trek Universe & all it's world building is what I care about and how it progresses moving foreward.

I'll leave the IRL Humanitarian causes to people who are passionate about those things.
That's better left in the hands of those who have a passion for it.

 

[Sci]

Then why do you keep attacking me?

I have not attacked you. I have attacked your ideas and the a priori values upon which you base your ideas, because they are ideas and values that if implemented in real life would be tyrannical and harmful.

You don't sound peaceful to me when you keep denying me and my rights to time travel and save lives.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I have not attacked you. I have attacked your ideas and the a priori values upon which you base your ideas, because they are ideas and values that if implemented in real life would be tyrannical and harmful.

I disagree, and we'll have to agree to disagree since we're going nowhere with this.

Yeah, you heard me. Time travel is important to me. I plan on continuing with using it in my Head Canon.

And I want Star Trek to have even MORE time travel stories moving foreward.

 

[Sci]

Or do you not believe in co-existence with those who are different from you?

Nobody has said anything about not peacefully co-existing with you.

Then why do you keep attacking me?

You don't sound peaceful to me when you keep denying me and my rights to time travel and save lives.

Yeah, you heard me. Time travel is important to me. I plan on continuing with using it in my Head Canon.

I mean, use it in your head canon all you want. But time travel is not real, and nobody is "denying" you the use of something that does not exist, and arguing against the idea of using time travel is not denying you peaceful co-existence.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

That's why time is constantly branching into countless parallel realities.

Every major decision you take, splits time into a infinite set of branching parallel realities.

You only need to see the TNG episode of "Parallels" to see that the Parallel worlds theory is very much true.

Even Ruon Tarka wants to go to a different "Parallel" Universe that doesn't have "The Burn", or the Emerald Chain.

Why can't my reality be allowed to exist, one where the UFP & StarFleet saves their people?

If you want to live in your static timeline, I'm more than happy to send you there in your Parallel Reality.

Star Trek's idea of what Time Travel even is is wildly inconsistent. Sure, there's 'Parallels' and the Kelvin universe, but there's also DS9 implying the Sisko had always been Gabriel Bell and First Contact showing Earth literally transform because of the Borg's actions in the past (if the parallel worlds theory were true, the Borg sphere should have gone off to conquer a different earth and simply never have been heard of again in the world it originated from) before Picard and crew go 'home' to the 'same' future they left from. Not to mention the repeated use of time travel as a weapon to change the world around you (the Krenim, the Sphere-builders, etc).

It's wildly inconsistent because it's a bunch of made up stories written by completely different people with different interests and ideas. So maybe back off calling people cowards over a tv show, yeah?

In any case, since it is wildly inconsistent there's nothing illogical about picking your favorite parts of it to be the cornerstone of your head canon and if the parallel worlds theory is what you like then go for it. But if that's the basis of your impassioned pleas then you've completely undermined everything you've been saying about morality because in the parallel worlds theory, *all* worlds exist. Time traveling to 'fix' the past doesn't erase anything. The bad stuff still happened. People still died. You just changed your personal POV to a different universe where things turned out better. The only person you can actually help that way is yourself, not the people who already died. They're still dead back in the original universe you left behind.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I mean, use it in your head canon all you want. But time travel is not real, and nobody is "denying" you the use of something that does not exist, and arguing against the idea of using time travel is not denying you peaceful co-existence.

Alot of things aren't real.

Warp Drive isn't real, Transporters aren't real, Replicators aren't real, Time travel isn't real.

Doesn't mean humanity won't be inspired by Star Trek and strive to make those technology real one day in the future.

DARPA Funded Researchers Accidentally Discover The World’s First Warp Bubble

Doesn't mean there aren't first steps to that Star Trek future that we all want to turn into reality.

Somebody is working on it, I know for a fact that NASA and other high level scientists are working on Warp Drive.

Just like scientists are working on transporter tech one step at a time.

 

[Sci]

Alot of things aren't real.

Warp Drive isn't real, Transporters aren't real, Replicators aren't real, Time travel isn't real.

Doesn't mean humanity won't be inspired by Star Trek and strive to make those technology real one day in the future.

DARPA Funded Researchers Accidentally Discover The World’s First Warp Bubble

Doesn't mean there aren't first steps to that Star Trek future that we all want to turn into reality.

Somebody is working on it, I know for a fact that NASA and other high level scientists are working on Warp Drive.

Just like scientists are working on transporter tech one step at a time.

That's cool. Still doesn't mean anyone is "denying" you anything or is refusing to peacefully co-exist with you.

 

[dupersuper]

He's no puppet, but he is a collaborator when necessary.

Or when Section 31 told him it was...

I won't let that happen. Not in my head canon.
The way people use those powers are very much controlled and targeted.

That's great for your head canon, it just doesn't seem feasible.

Depends on which ones you enjoy more in the totality

Do you prefer Dark Visions of Time Travel and AI with allegorical warning messages?
or
Do you prefer Positive Views of Time Travel and AI where they benefit society?

What's your preference?

...Well told stories with engaging characters...?

It shouldn't, most luddite colonies usually want nothing to do with us hi tech modern folk.

Which will do nothing for them if you accidentally prevent their founding in any one of infinite ways.

You can't undo reality

Famous last words...

I know what it is, i don't necessarily agree with it or believe the ButterFly effect is a valid theory outside of it's original use case. You can't apply the ButterFly Effect to everything and expect it to work.

While you personally can always say it doesn't apply to time travel in your head canon, as time travel is purely theoretical it's a valid concern outside of your headcanon.

We'll see, won't we.

Probably not...

Actually, they would, because that's who they are.

But that's not who they would be if they "thought their lives came first".

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Star Trek's idea of what Time Travel even is is wildly inconsistent. Sure, there's 'Parallels' and the Kelvin universe, but there's also DS9 implying the Sisko had always been Gabriel Bell and First Contact showing Earth literally transform because of the Borg's actions in the past (if the parallel worlds theory were true, the Borg sphere should have gone off to conquer a different earth and simply never have been heard of again in the world it originated from) before Picard and crew go 'home' to the 'same' future they left from. Not to mention the repeated use of time travel as a weapon to change the world around you (the Krenim, the Sphere-builders, etc).

There was a real Gabriel Bell, but Sisko had to take his place due to Gabriel Bell's impact on time and how Gabriel Bell died.

Sisko just closed the loop.

Lucky for that parallel world, that the Borg doesn't have the tech to slide between parallel realities.

As far as Time Travel as a weapon, we see Voyager create defenses against Temporal Weapons, I'm sure others will eventually come to the same conclusion and develop Temporal defenses & weapons as well.

It's wildly inconsistent because it's a bunch of made up stories written by completely different people with different interests and ideas. So maybe back off calling people cowards over a tv show, yeah?

Depends, do they want to not save lives? Or let them stay dead?

In any case, since it is wildly inconsistent there's nothing illogical about picking your favorite parts of it to be the cornerstone of your head canon and if the parallel worlds theory is what you like then go for it. But if that's the basis of your impassioned pleas then you've completely undermined everything you've been saying about morality because in the parallel worlds theory, *all* worlds exist. Time traveling to 'fix' the past doesn't erase anything. The bad stuff still happened. People still died. You just changed your personal POV to a different universe where things turned out better. The only person you can actually help that way is yourself, not the people who already died. They're still dead back in the original universe you left behind.

And if that original Universe gets over-ridden by the changes that you did and becomes your current universe?

We see that with the Krenim and how changes in time ripple through and becomes your new reality.

Same with all the time travel in ENT.

Or when Section 31 told him it was...

He always had the right to choose not to collaborate, but given the body counts that were building up. Ross chose to work with them.

That's great for your head canon, it just doesn't seem feasible.

I think it is feasible, and we're going to have to agree to disagree.

...Well told stories with engaging characters...?

That's true with everybody, that's not what I'm asking.

Which will do nothing for them if you accidentally prevent their founding in any one of infinite ways.

I doubt their founding will have that many points of ingress. If they were hell bent on forming said Luddite Colony, it will happen, regardless of many external factors.

Famous last words...

=D

While you personally can always say it doesn't apply to time travel in your head canon, as time travel is purely theoretical it's a valid concern outside of your headcanon.

How so, because Time Travel is a fictional concept at this point in time and we have no way to verify if any of it is even feasible?
Right now, it's all speculation since Time Travel isn't possible at the moment.

Probably not...

Then maybe our descendents will see, somewhere down the line.

But that's not who they would be if they "thought their lives came first".

It's not to that point of selfishness & self interest that they wouldn't go help others.

 

[Sci]

One interesting thing to think about with regards to time travel in Star Trek is the question of whether changing the past "overwrites" the original timeline or creates a new "branching" timeline that splinters off and then coexists with the original timeline.

If it's the latter, then that would tend to suggest that travelling to the past to try to un-do historical events might be, well, futile. If you travel from 2399 to 2384 to stop the Mars Attack, all you'll actually do is create a branching timeline; in your timeline, those people will still be dead. And your new branching timeline will probably be a duplicate of an already-existing alternate timeline. So your efforts may well have been both ineffective -- you won't have brought back the particular versions of the people you were trying to save -- and redundant -- those same people already survived in third timeline.

But of course, until or unless it's possible to predict whether an instance of timeline "overwrites" or "branches out," it's still too dangerous to allow it.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

One interesting thing to think about with regards to time travel in Star Trek is the question of whether changing the past "overwrites" the original timeline or creates a new "branching" timeline that splinters off and then coexists with the original timeline.

If it's the latter, then that would tend to suggest that travelling to the past to try to un-do historical events might be, well, futile. If you travel from 2399 to 2384 to stop the Mars Attack, all you'll actually do is create a branching timeline; in your timeline, those people will still be dead. And your new branching timeline will probably be a duplicate of an already-existing alternate timeline. So your efforts may well have been both ineffective -- you won't have brought back the particular versions of the people you were trying to save -- and redundant -- those same people already survived in third timeline.

But of course, until or unless it's possible to predict whether an instance of timeline "overwrites" or "branches out," it's still too dangerous to allow it.

Good for you and your head canon.

That changes nothing for mine.

Good Talk!

 

[SJGardner]

Yes they did, time is constantly branching. If you choose to do one thing, time will go in that direction.
Outcomes would be different. The children you might have will be different.

If you lived, the children you might have, the children they might have will be different.

If your person died because of outside influence, you wipe away that branch of the temporal possibility tree.

You only need to look at the episode of ST:TNG.S7.E11 "Parallels" to see the branching effects of time and all the parallel quantum realities.

Do the current people who died consent to dieing suddenly? I'm willing to bet that they never consented to die because the actions of some double agent who triggered a catastrophe that is orders of magnitude worse than 9/11.

That's why time is constantly branching into countless parallel realities.

Every major decision you take, splits time into a infinite set of branching parallel realities.

You only need to see the TNG episode of "Parallels" to see that the Parallel worlds theory is very much true.

Even Ruon Tarka wants to go to a different "Parallel" Universe that doesn't have "The Burn", or the Emerald Chain.

Why can't my reality be allowed to exist, one where the UFP & StarFleet saves their people?

If you want to live in your static timeline, I'm more than happy to send you there in your Parallel Reality.

Why? Oh, why?

Because it's my own fucking life, dammit. If you change the past of this iteration of me, I will cease to exist and a different parallel version of me will exist in my place. One that doesn't share my consciousness, therefore for all intents and purposes, I will cease to exist. In layman's terms, I will die. A version of me would exist, but it wouldn't be me.

With the many worlds hypothesis and Parallels, you are talking about alternate timelines with points of divergence that exist independently, alongside each other. They are treated as a completely different thing than literally every other instance of time travel in Star Trek (Kelvinverse aside), where changing the past overwrites the history of the specific reality whose past you're changing. You go back to Chapter 3 of the manuscript, and instead of creating a fork of the story with different Chapters 4 through 25, you instead wipe out everything after Chapter 3 and rewrite a new, different story from that. Time travel reliably creating new parallel universes and leaving the original intact is not consistent with how Star Trek treats its own time travel stories with the constant urgency to restore and preserve the timeline.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Why? Oh, why?

Because it's my own fucking life, dammit. If you change the past of this iteration of me, I will cease to exist and a different parallel version of me will exist in my place. One that doesn't share my consciousness, therefore for all intents and purposes, I will cease to exist. In layman's terms, I will die. A version of me would exist, but it wouldn't be me.

Fine, if you want your temporal shielding to shield you from any timeline changes, I'll be more than happy to mass produce temporal shields for every single person who wants one.

Problem solved.

Voyager already created them in the past, by the 26the century in my Head Canon, Temporal shields are common and everywhere.

You can have your own set of personal Regular Deflector Shields / Temporal Shields.

With the many worlds hypothesis and Parallels, you are talking about alternate timelines with points of divergence that exist independently, alongside each other. They are treated as a completely different thing than literally every other instance of time travel in Star Trek (Kelvinverse aside), where changing the past overwrites the history of the specific reality whose past you're changing. You go back to Chapter 3 of the manuscript, and instead of creating a fork of the story with different Chapters 4 through 25, you instead wipe out everything after Chapter 3 and rewrite a new, different story from that. Time travel reliably creating new parallel universes and leaving the original intact is not consistent with how Star Trek treats its own time travel stories with the constant urgency to restore and preserve the timeline.

I think both will happen, that's how wonky Time Travel is.

There will be one Quantum reality that is unchanged, and there will be another that is replaced.

Both will exist in slightly different Quantum Realities.

Ergo, fulfilling the infinite branching Parallel World Trees.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

There was a real Gabriel Bell, but Sisko had to take his place due to Gabriel Bell's impact on time and how Gabriel Bell died.

Sisko just closed the loop.

History recorded him *as* Gabriel Bell. Which means he time traveled into his own past, which isn't possible for the many worlds theory of time travel.

Lucky for that parallel world, that the Borg doesn't have the tech to slide between parallel realities.

As far as Time Travel as a weapon, we see Voyager create defenses against Temporal Weapons, I'm sure others will eventually come to the same conclusion and develop Temporal defenses & weapons as well.

Totally missing the point.

Either the many worlds theory is true, in which case you *cannot change the past*. You can only move from one world to another in order to make yourself feel better by not having to think about how many people died in your original universe, which continues to exist exactly as it was without you.

Or it isn't true, in which case you can't use the many worlds theory as an excuse for why your time travel theories won't actually hurt anyone.

Depends, do they want to not save lives? Or let them stay dead?

No, it doesn't depend. It's a fictional universe. Calling anyone cowardly or disgusting over the correct interpretation of a fictional universe is far more disgusting than anything anyone else has said here.

And if that original Universe gets over-ridden by the changes that you did and becomes your current universe?

We see that with the Krenim and how changes in time ripple through and becomes your new reality.

Same with all the time travel in ENT.

Which is completely inconsistent with Parallels, because it's a fictional universe.

 

[SJGardner]

Fine, if you want your temporal shielding to shield you from any timeline changes, I'll be more than happy to mass produce temporal shields for every single person who wants one.

Problem solved.

Voyager already created them in the past, by the 26the century in my Head Canon, Temporal shields are common and everywhere.

You can have your own set of personal Regular Deflector Shields / Temporal Shields.

Yes, because living as a stranger in a different reality where my memories are inconsistent with those of everyone else around me is a wholly positive experience that I definitely do want to have as part of my life and in no way, shape or form would induce a gigantic anxiety attack in me and make me question my sanity. Definitely sounds like a problem solved.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

History recorded him *as* Gabriel Bell. Which means he time traveled into his own past, which isn't possible for the many worlds theory of time travel.

Then that means there was a real Gabriel Bell, and history mistook Benjamin as Gabriel Bell.

Totally missing the point.

Either the many worlds theory is true, in which case you *cannot change the past*. You can only move from one world to another in order to make yourself feel better by not having to think about how many people died in your original universe, which continues to exist exactly as it was without you.

Or it isn't true, in which case you can't use the many worlds theory as an excuse for why your time travel theories won't actually hurt anyone.

Or both can be true since both could still occur to be consistent with all of Star Trek's numerous time travel episodes with various mechanics.

When you change the past, you change your future, and by the time you return, it's your new reality.

People have changed due to your effects, and a seperate reality would fracture off into a different branch where you didn't make said change and one where you did make change, but never returned to.

No, it doesn't depend. It's a fictional universe. Calling anyone cowardly or disgusting over the correct interpretation of a fictional universe is far more disgusting than anything anyone else has said here.

You folks are calling me murderers of hypothetical Billions/Millions for wanting to save people who were unjustly murdered by a double agent.

Which is completely inconsistent with Parallels, because it's a fictional universe.

Parallels is just one of many time travel episodes with slightly different time travel mechanics.

Yes, because living as a stranger in a different reality where my memories are inconsistent with those of everyone else around me is a wholly positive experience that I definitely do want to have as part of my life and in no way, shape or form would induce a gigantic anxiety attack in me and make me question my sanity. Definitely sounds like a problem solved.

I gave you the option, do you want me to temporally integrate you with a slightly past version of you, pre timeline change.

This way you can have the memories of both "Pre-Time Change" and "Post-Time Change" timelines so you won't be confused as to what's different and what happened?

 

[SJGardner]

I gave you the option, do you want me to temporally integrate you with a slightly past version of you, pre timeline change.

This way you can have the memories of both "Pre-Time Change" and "Post-Time Change" timelines so you won't be confused as to what's different and what happened?

Two conflicting sets of memories would be even more detrimental to my sanity. Memories don't come with pre-built tags that tell you which timeline they are from.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Then why do you keep attacking me?

You don't sound peaceful to me when you keep denying me and my rights to time travel and save lives.

They made it personal by attacking me & my ideas.

Don't share your ideas...and endlessly...if you take it personally when people disagree with them.

I think it's past time for everyone to step back from the heated mess that this ludicrously irrelevant thread tangent has become.