How can anyone think Sisko died?

[GalaxyClass1701]

I have had three people (one on this board) tell me that they thought Sisko died.

How is this interpritation even possible?

After he falls and talks to Sarah he comes to Kassidy and flat out says he is coming back he just doesn't know when.

How can someone think he died?

 

[flemm]

I think numerous interpretations are possible. That he died is one of them. It's not the one I prefer personally, but I think the ambiguity of the final scene allows for it.

Sisko has joined the Prophets, but who are the prophets? Beings that live outside of time, perhaps transfigured Bajorans? The "Pagh" of sentient beings once they have shed their corporeal form? What is communicating with Kassidy may be Sisko's "Pagh" or "soul" now that his physical form has died.

He says he will return, but this is temporally ambiguous: maybe tomorrow, maybe yesterday, i.e. maybe in the past or the future, since his conception of time is now that of the Prophets: non-linear.

It's also possible that Sisko's physical form has simply been removed from time, a bit like the Jem'Hadar in Sacrifice of Angels, which would mean that he may return to linear time, "maybe tomorrow, maybe yesterday," presumably whenever the Emissary is again needed.

Spoiler: DS9 relaunch novels

This is what happens in the DS9-R novels, which also follow up on the missing Jem'hadar (since the two incidents would seem to be related according to this interpretation.

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

I think numerous interpretations are possible. That he died is one of them. It's not the one I prefer personally, but I think the ambiguity of the final scene allows for it.

Sisko has joined the Prophets, but who are the prophets? Beings that live outside of time, perhaps transfigured Bajorans? The "Pagh" of sentient beings once they have shed their corporeal form? What is communicating with Kassidy may be Sisko's "Pagh" or "soul" now that his physical form has died.

He says he will return, but this is temporally ambiguous: maybe tomorrow, maybe yesterday, i.e. maybe in the past or the future, since his conception of time is now that of the Prophets: non-linear.

But he also says it could be as little as a year. I don't know I never once thought he was dead?

 

[flemm]

But he also says it could be as little as a year. I don't know I never once thought he was dead?

Well, for one thing, we don't really have to take what he says literally. It's Sisko's pagh that's doing the talking here, or the part of him that is a Prophet. Often, after someone has died, you will hear things like, "He was with us today in spirit," or "I could feel his presence among us," expressions that might be more or less metaphorical depending on who's using them. Given the Prophet's ability to "watch over" and to "guide" beings in linear time, Prophet Sisko could be referring to something like this.

There's also the possibility of some sort of rebirth or return to linear time that would not necessarily preclude Sisko dying in the fire caves. Since part of him lives outside of linear time, he could probably return in the future and still "die" in WYLB.

I'm just saying: I think a few different interpretations are possible and the final scene is intended to be enigmatic, underscored by the temporal uncertainty: maybe in a year, maybe tomorrow, maybe yesterday, etc.

 

[TheGodBen]

In the original version of the script (which was filmed) Sisko was dead. Well, his body was dead but his consciousness ascended to the Celestial Temple and he was trapped there never to return. After filming it, Avery Brooks had reservations about the image of a black man being seen to abandon his pregnant wife and he feared that it made Sisko into a bad role-model, so he asked for the scene to be rewritten to make it clear that he would return one day. Ira agreed and that's the ending that made it into the episode.

Personally, I prefer the intention of original ending, it works far better with the warning given to him by the Prophets in Sacrifice of Angels and Penumbra. By "removing" the Dominion ships from the wormhole the Prophets began a series of events which caused Dukat to go mad, his madness led him to try to release the Pah-Wraiths, and that led to Sisko sacrificing himself to stop them. "The Sisko is of Bajor, but he will find no rest there." Sisko will never leave the Celestial Temple and will never have the opportunity to built his house on Bajor.

Yes, Sisko did say he would return, but that might have been something he said to Kasidy to keep her spirits up. Or he might not have understood the situation fully and thought that he could return one day. Or he was just lying to himself in thinking he could return to his old life. I like that there's more ambiguity in this ending because all the people that want Sisko to be alive can still see it that way, but as far as I'm concerned Sisko is as good as dead, that was the creator's intention.

 

[flemm]

"The Sisko is of Bajor, but he will find no rest there." Sisko will never leave the Celestial Temple and will never have the opportunity to built his house on Bajor.

There's really no contradiction between the idea that Sisko will return and the prophecy that he is "of Bajor," but will find no rest there. Presumably if he does return, it will not be to live happily ever after, but to accomplish some further task as the Emissary.

I actually prefer the ending as filmed since it allows for some ambiguity.

 

[Jono]

Sisko "sheds" his corporeal self and lives on in "heaven"...sounds like he is dead. Sisko then tells people he will be back...sounds a bit like reincarnation. So thinking Sisko is dead isn't that much of a stretch and lets face it Trek has a long and proud history of killing people only for them to come back from the dead.

 

[DevilEyes]

Yes, and, black or not, Sisko leaving a pregnant wife and son to achieve some sort of "higher" destiny frankly sucks.

 

[JarodRussell]

Yes, and, black or not, Sisko leaving a pregnant wife and son to achieve some sort of "higher" destiny frankly sucks.

The way he returned in the DS9-R novels sucked even more. So awfully anticlimactic.


The fun thing is that in an earlier episode - where another Emissary emerges from the wormhole - they cite a prophecy in which the one who will be the Emissary has to be saved by the prophets. Eventually, this only happens in the very last episode.

 

[TheGodBen]

There's really no contradiction between the idea that Sisko will return and the prophecy that he is "of Bajor," but will find no rest there. Presumably if he does return, it will not be to live happily ever after, but to accomplish some further task as the Emissary.

But Sisko was also warned that if he married Kasidy he would "know only sorrow", which was originally supposed to represent the fact that he was going to leave his corporeal existence to become a Prophet. Sure, you can come up with alternative explanations later, but when they were writing the Final Chapter, Sisko was supposed to "die".

I actually prefer the ending as filmed since it allows for some ambiguity.

I prefer it too, everyone can have the ending they want this way. It reminds me of the ending of The Sopranos where the creator, David Chase, seems to have had an idea as to how it ended and placed hints for this in the final episodes, but the ending so ambiguous that multiple theories will work.

Yes, and, black or not, Sisko leaving a pregnant wife and son to achieve some sort of "higher" destiny frankly sucks.

It's not like as if he has a choice, he's trapped.

 

[flemm]

But Sisko was also warned that if he married Kasidy he would "know only sorrow", which was originally supposed to represent the fact that he was going to leave his corporeal existence to become a Prophet. Sure, you can come up with alternative explanations later, but when they were writing the Final Chapter, Sisko was supposed to "die".

I get that the original intent was to have him die, but it could only ever be "death" in quotation marks since a part of him was going to live on in the Temple as a Prophet and presumably continue to interact with Bajor as the Prophets had done and would continue to do.

A continued existence in another form is implied by the prophecy that marrying Kassidy would cause him to "only know sorrow," since the only way to know sorrow is to go on existing (though separated from his beloved). In that sense, the idea that Sisko may eventually return satisfies the Prophets' warning just as well as the original ending, if not better: it's being separated that produces the sorrow, not being dead, and an eventual return does not imply happiness from that moment on.

In some sense, Sisko and Kassidy's separation is not unlike Kira and Odo's: Odo has joined the Link, and though he may one day return (the possibility exists), that is uncertain. Sisko has joined the Prophets, and though he may one day return, the time and manner of his return is unknown. Hence there is sorrow, in both cases.

 

[TheGodBen]

The question is, can Sisko return? Whenever the Prophets (or Pah-Wraiths) have contacted somebody before they only seem to interact with the consciousness or soul of the person, the person's physical form remains in linear time. As such, I believe that when Sisko was rescued from the Fire Caves his body was left to burn while his soul is what moved on to live in the Celestial Temple. Are the Prophets even capable of sending Sisko back if his body is dead? We know they are able to possess living beings, such as Sarah Sisko, but they don't seem to be capable of creating physical forms for themselves.

Sisko could certainly interact with Kasidy, Jake and Baby Sisko if he wants, and he could interact with Bajor to guide them in times of trouble, but I'm not convinced that he'd be capable of coming back and living with corporeal beings again.

 

[flemm]

Sisko could certainly interact with Kasidy, Jake and Baby Sisko if he wants, and he could interact with Bajor to guide them in times of trouble, but I'm not convinced that he'd be capable of coming back and living with corporeal beings again.

I'm certainly open to the idea the Sisko may only return as a Prophet, i.e. in visions and such.

Is it possible he could return in physical form?

I think the answer is probably "yes," if we conclude that the Prophets pulled his corporeal form out of linear time as they apparently did to the Jem'Hadar in Sacrifice of Angels.

How could they have accomplished this outside of the wormhole?

Answering this in any detail would require an extended fanwanking session, due to the fact that we are given little information regarding the Pagh Wraith and their imprisonment within the fire caves. We could probably start with the notion that the fire caves, like the Orbs (Tears of the Prophets), are a passageway to whatever dimension the Prophets inhabit outside of linear time.

 

[TheGodBen]

Is it possible he could return in physical form?

I think the answer is probably "yes," if we conclude that the Prophets pulled his corporeal form out of linear time as they apparently did to the Jem'Hadar in Sacrifice of Angels.

I think the answer is "yes" so long as the plot requires it.

Since there is no more plot (not for me at any rate, I don't read the novels) I'm going to continue to believe that Sisko is stuck now, never to return to his old life except in visions. But that's because I'm a cold and cynical person.

 

[flemm]

Since there is no more plot (not for me at any rate, I don't read the novels) I'm going to continue to believe that Sisko is stuck now, never to return to his old life except in visions. But that's because I'm a cold and cynical person.

Why "stuck" and not freed from the bonds of his corporeal/linear existence?

 

[TheGodBen]

Because he wants to go back to his family, but he can't truly be with them any more, Sisko doesn't seem to me to be the sort of guy that would abandon his family to have adventures in another dimension. If he could leave at any time then I imagine he really would have returned "yesterday", therefore it makes sense for him to be trapped there somehow. It also better fulfils the prophesy of him knowing "nothing but sorrow".

 

[flemm]

Because he wants to go back to his family, but he can't truly be with them any more, Sisko doesn't seem to me to be the sort of guy that would abandon his family to have adventures in another dimension.

Not intentionally, no, but then he was never faced with that choice: what he did was necessary to stop Dukat and imprison the Pagh Wraith.

If he could leave at any time then I imagine he really would have returned "yesterday", therefore it makes sense for him to be trapped there somehow. It also better fulfils the prophesy of him knowing "nothing but sorrow".

Well, the Prophets obviously don't take their relationship with Bajor lightly, and neither would the Sisko/Prophet. He would act (return or not return) according to the needs of the big picture that he was able to almost entirely perceive in Rapture, but which he can presumably perceive more clearly now that he is with the Prophets.

It's true that if Sisko returns he might experience happiness with Kasidy for a short time, but then he already has, so I don't think a brief period of happiness necessarily contradicts the Prophets' warning: the idea is that he won't be able to retire to a quiet life on Bajor as he had hoped.

Your interpretation is certainly possible, but I think a number of others are as well.

 

[TheGodBen]

Certainly, many interpretations are possible, I just prefer mine. Just like the ending of The Sopranos is open to interpretation, I prefer to believe that

Spoiler: Made in America

Tony is Dead.

And with the ending of Scrubs (season 8, the real ending) I prefer to think that JD's final fantasy is how his life really turned out. And with the ending of Lost... well that was all just gibberish!

 

[flemm]

Certainly, many interpretations are possible, I just prefer mine.

Fair enough

 

[Smiley]

I never thought of Sisko as dead because he did promise to return. Also, didn't he bring Kasidy to the Temple and send her back to give her his message? That implies that he is able to join her when the time is right.