How big was the Enterprise?

[BK613]

@Shaw Well, for one, having a actual person walking around and talking about the spaces being discussed in this thread gives the viewer a visceral sense of scale that arguably no set of line drawings could ever convey.
And like the curator of the museum is constantly pointing out, the New Jersey has modified and re-modified many times—both by the yards and by her crews. Which means that a single Booklet of Plans will never tell the whole story (like in the case of the plans you linked to, the New jersey as she was intended to be in 1984.)

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

And on the other end of the spectrum is the enlisted berthing on New Jersey (and the example shown here definitely has a Cerritos feel to it.)

It does indeed. And it's downright luxurious compared with the enlisted berthing aboard a WWII-era Balao-class submarine (I've toured the Pampanito more than a dozen times, and the Bowfin twice). Note that in addition to having very limited space (with some bunking in the torpedo rooms!), they all have to hot-rack. Oh, and as I recall, a Balao-class boat only has one head in the stern, and one head in the bow, so it's not a good place for the incontinent to serve.

why not refer to the Booklet of General Plans?

Why not, indeed, I have a copy of the general plans for the TOS-era Constitution Class (the Ballantine edition)*, and damned if FJS not only managed to fit in quarters for 430+ with no bunkrooms, but also the bowling alley mentioned in "The Naked Time" (which presumably could be reconfigured as a ballroom and as the ship's theatre).

_____
*Alibris lists four copies available, with prices starting at $40 (Damn!) and topping out at $132 (Holy Shit!)

 

[Nerys Myk]

Big McLarge Huge

 

[Tallguy]

Big McLarge Huge

See, I think that's too big.

 

[B.J.]

Big McLarge Huge

Slab Bulkhead!

Sorry, had to....

As for comparing crew bunks on current-day ships to ones on the Enterprise, I don't think it's a fair comparison. Putting aside the tech differences, on a current-day ship you have the ability to *outside* if you feel the need, which I think does a lot for someone's mental health. On a starship, you're stuck inside. Away missions to planets are few and far between for the average crew member. So I personally think they compensate some for that with the (to us) overly large crew cabins. Submariners don't really fit into this discussion since they have to go through special training and mental evaluations before they're able to be assigned to a boat.

 

[Tallguy]

Slab Bulkhead!

Sorry, had to....

As for comparing crew bunks on current-day ships to ones on the Enterprise, I don't think it's a fair comparison. Putting aside the tech differences, on a current-day ship you have the ability to *outside* if you feel the need, which I think does a lot for someone's mental health. On a starship, you're stuck inside. Away missions to planets are few and far between for the average crew member. So I personally think they compensate some for that with the (to us) overly large crew cabins. Submariners don't really fit into this discussion since they have to go through special training and mental evaluations before they're able to be assigned to a boat.

Well the obvious comparison would be to submarines.

 

[fireproof78]

Slab Bulkhead!

Sorry, had to....

As for comparing crew bunks on current-day ships to ones on the Enterprise, I don't think it's a fair comparison. Putting aside the tech differences, on a current-day ship you have the ability to *outside* if you feel the need, which I think does a lot for someone's mental health. On a starship, you're stuck inside. Away missions to planets are few and far between for the average crew member. So I personally think they compensate some for that with the (to us) overly large crew cabins. Submariners don't really fit into this discussion since they have to go through special training and mental evaluations before they're able to be assigned to a boat.

Agreed. I think adding in bigger spaces, either quarters or recreational space, would be essential in a way a submarine or even surface ship would not be as concerned about.

 

[blssdwlf]

Well the obvious comparison would be to submarines.

Comparing function but not size, IMHO. Submarines are already small and cramped when compared to say a 947' long TOS Enterprise.

For example, a large Ohio class submarine that is 42' wide and 560' long would fit inside a nacelle on the Enterprise which is 53' wide and 510-520' long. (Okay the sub would stick out a bit because the sub is longer.)

So trying to compare crew quarters between the Enterprise and a submarine will always make the Enterprise seem very roomy.

 

[scotpens]

. . . I have a copy of the general plans for the TOS-era Constitution Class (the Ballantine edition)*, and damned if FJS not only managed to fit in quarters for 430+ with no bunkrooms, but also the bowling alley mentioned in "The Naked Time" (which presumably could be reconfigured as a ballroom and as the ship's theatre).

I've never considered the bowling alley to be canon. It was mentioned only once by Lt. Riley, and he wasn't in his right mind at the time; he was under the influence of alien funny water.

 

[Tomalak]

Why wouldn't there be a bowling ally? A couple of lanes wouldn't take up much space. It doesn't have to be a Megabowl.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I've never considered the bowling alley to be canon. It was mentioned only once by Lt. Riley, and he wasn't in his right mind at the time; he was under the influence of alien funny water.

I like the explanation John Byrne offered in issue 10 of Star Trek: New Visions: It's several banks of high capacity batteries that run almost the entire length of the secondary hull. Scotty tells Chekov that several of the junior engineers call it "the bowling alley," which he finds disrespectful.

 

[scotpens]

I like the explanation John Byrne offered in issue 10 of Star Trek: New Visions: It's several banks of high capacity batteries that run almost the entire length of the secondary hull. Scotty tells Chekov that several of the junior engineers call it "the bowling alley," which he finds disrespectful.

That sounds plausible, but it doesn't seem like there'd be much room for dancing.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That sounds plausible, but it doesn't seem like there'd be much room for dancing.

It's for line dancing.

 

[Will_Carter]

My idea what a Klingon scoutship could have looked like in “Errand Of Mercy” in S1.

 

[BK613]

re: the bowling alley.
In the real world, as ships go through renovations, spaces can become available for reuse that before contained machinery or was used for another purpose.
We had a space that originally was ammo storage for the mid-ship 3"/50cal guns. When those guns were removed in the late 70s—a couple of years before me reporting aboard—that space was repurposed for use as a library/study/classroom/religious service room.
While I don't see bowling still having any kind of appeal in the 23rd century, it does have the advantage of not need much deck height.

 

[Tallguy]

My head canon has Pike's shuttle facilities being VERY different and considerably abbreviated from Kirk's. (I only mention this because FJ's bowling alley is beneath the shuttle deck.)

 

[ZapBrannigan]

My head canon has Pike's shuttle facilities being VERY different and considerably abbreviated from Kirk's. (I only mention this because FJ's bowling alley is beneath the shuttle deck.)

I just popped over to the Cygnus site and noticed that FJ's Hangar Deck elevator rests on a vertical support pole in the Inboard Profile that should cut through the bowling alley. But the plan for Deck 21 does not show the pole in the bowling alley:

https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/stb-rescan/5.jpg

https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/stb-rescan/11.jpg

Am I missing something, or did FJ make a mistake?

He made clever use of the fantail's curved undercut, for stadium seating. I just noticed that, too.

 

[BK613]

I just popped over to the Cygnus site and noticed that FJ's Hangar Deck elevator rests on a vertical support pole in the Inboard Profile that should cut through the bowling alley. But the plan for Deck 21 does not show the pole in the bowling alley:

It's there. Row two of the seats. That's where it comes down in the cross-section.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

It's there. Row two of the seats. That's where it comes down in the cross-section.

Thanks. I guess I was expecting a bigger vertical housing.

 

[aridas sofia]

My reason for bringing up the relatively tight quarters on many naval vessels was to make the point that was made incredibly clear in the 1960s days of early spaceflight - the space being moved has to have utility. Two guys crammed in a space the size of the front seat of an MG Midget for two weeks- that was Gemini in 1966. A naval vessel is pure luxury in comparison, and what was envisioned for Enterprise three hundred years in the future? Look at those corridors. They are meant to convey spaciousness without looking wasteful. After all, we see those corridors crammed with crew running to their stations during red alert. But then, why should crew quarters where one or two people at most stay be much bigger than a bed? Presumably they are used for sleeping and some private time but for the most part, a crewman would be expected to be on duty or socializing with other off duty personnel, not isolating. I think the idea of a Manhattan penthouse suite-sized quarters going unused for huge chunks of a day would strike people making a 1966 show about space travel as being wasteful. But anyway, I think anyone like the 1/25 scale model maker who fleshes the Enterprise design out in any visual way that makes it meaningful to the average person will show that no matter how you cut it, there IS a huge amount of wasted space. At a minimum, a third of the quarters are empty all the time. And this line of thinking is what makes me recoil against the idea - admittedly from the makers of the show themselves - that there is a need for a huge hangar bay. It isn’t as if the thing needs a runway. Small craft can presumably be brought aboard and positioned with precision. After all, those same Gemini capsules in the news when Star Trek was being created were being shown practicing pinpoint docking maneuvers in orbit. The hangar bay already had a huge amount of overhead space that went largely unused. It isn’t as if the shuttlecraft were stacked in there- though there is no reason why they couldn’t have been.