How big was Starbase 11?

[Wingsley]

We don't see much of the base in "Court Martial" or "The Menagerie", but we do see several things that suggest it is quite large:

• civilian as well as Starfleet presence
• definite architecture in ground facilities; this isn't just a space station or a temporary ground facility or just a simple military barracks
• it has a nice O-club, very nicely appointed office and medical facilities, hi-rise apartment housing, nice concourse, a very grand courtroom, etc.
• Ships stop here for repairs, not just supplies
• The base C.O. is at least a Starfleet commodore in rank

In "The Tressaurian Intersection", a fan-film episode of "Starship Exeter", it is noted that the starbase on Corinth IV is staffed by a crew of 2,000. I would say Starbase 11, which seems to be more thoroughly established, must be much larger than that. But how big can the base be? If the C.O. is at least a commodore, what does that say about the number of Starfleet personnel stationed there?

 

[Timo]

I don't think we have ever seen a starbase smaller than that, in TOS or anywhere else. The couple of free-floating stations in TNG/DS9 looked more compact, of course, but there'd be considerable internal volume there as well for all sorts of "camp follower" functions.

Assuming Commodore Stone directly commanded every Starfleeter working in the base (excluding visiting starship or flotilla crews and commanders), and assuming Commodore is roughly comparable to Brigadier, we might be talking about a base 5,000-10,000 personnel strong. Today's naval bases of that size feature large numbers of Marines; we might assume the Trek future would downplay the role of manpower in "infantry fighting", but OTOH highlight the usefulness of all sorts of "civilian" specialists in Starfleet employ to bring the numbers back up. "True" civilians would come in addition to those numbers.

It would be fun to speculate further on the structure of SB11, but I'm afraid I'll have to get back to it a bit later on...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Wingsley]

As far as the ground Starfleet personnel aspect of it, I imagine it could have similarities to a naval base. Yes, I could see that. And with civvies obviously there, and apparent attention to "liveable" aesthetics in the architecture, it would seem a starbase like this would actually be a Federation-governed colony.

I could see this kind of thing happening. The Federation starships are scouting space, find an uninhabited Class M planet in a system filled with asteroids rich in useful raw material deposits. The Federation claims the Class M world as directly under their control, arranges contracts with mining companies and other infrastructure builders, and a parallel Starfleet and civilian colony takes shape on the planet. Stone may govern the central base, but the Federation may have a civvie governor stationed there for oversight as well.

If you look at the "original" exterior landscape of Starbase 11, it seems rather barren like Mars. I wonder if the Federation found a barren world, then unable to support life, and started terraforming it somehow for productive purposes. If they started shortly after the Federation formed, then they had over 100 years to create an oxygen atmosphere. This would make sense if the Federation wanted to create a certain number of "liveable" colony-bases strategically placed in Federation space or on the frontier.

 

[Rivas_Jakarta]

I was assigned to the carrier Truman, at NAVSTA Norfolk VA from 1998-2003. I definitely can tell you first hand that the base is quite large.

One side of the waterfront is set up just to accomodate all the "small boys", your frigates and destroyers. The other half is set up for the bigger ships from subs, cruisers, and supply ships, all the way down to the carrier piers. We even had a portable drydock.

Then you had a bunch of warehouses. And then you get into all the major Base commands and services (COMSECONDFLT, Base Admin, Base Legal, Disbursing, the Brig, Base Chapel, etc etc). You got some pretty big dorm-style barracks like Enterprise Hall. You had the "Wind N' Sea" Rec Center (plus food court) that was top-notch.

The Marines had portion of the base to themselves. Plus, you have the Air side of the base. The airfield is pretty much a base unto itself.

Naval Station Norfolk is big enough that the Base Clinic, the Exchange (NEX), the Package Store, the Commissary, the Applebees, and movie house are all actually on Navy-owned property OUTSIDE the base proper.

And I didn't even cover Base Housing. That's another big chunk of land off-base, as well.

One thing that I almost forgot was all the civilians we had working on-base. The Wind N Sea, food court, the NEX, the Commissary, plus all your big contractors that help run the actual base, guard the gates (to supplement the Master-At-Arms), and do all kinds fix-it work on the ships. Lots of civvie contractors runing around base.

Norfolk's a big base, for sure.

OK, so now I gave you the nickel tour of a modern Naval base.

Now carry it over in terms of a Starbase. Plus, a community of some sort would definitely pop up around Starbase 11. SB 11 would be pretty huge, right?

Military bases and their surrounding communities are intertwined. This is certainly true when a Partner For Education to your kid's school starts with "USS". That's when you know you're in a military town. And so it would go with a Starbase. I would guess Starbase 11, and it's surrounding community would be at least the size of city.


Wiki entry on my old stomping ground:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Station_Norfolk


aerial shot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Norfolk_naval_base_aerial_1985.jpg

 

[Wingsley]

Who was the commanding officer of Naval Station Norfolk while you were there?

 

[Rivas_Jakarta]

To tell you the truth, I'm not too sure. I was just a wee enlisted Radioman on the Truman, so I'm not too clear about the base CO.

 

[Wingsley]

Any idea how high the CO's rank was?

I tried visiting the base web-site earlier today, but it was unavailable.

 

[Wingsley]

I finally got through to the Naval Station Norfolk and muddled around a bit, finally finding a page for the base CO, a captain:

https://www.cnic.navy.mil/norfolksta/AboutCNIC/Biographies/CO/index.htm

The base XO is also a captain, interestingly enough.

Of course, there is other info on the web-site, including a reference to all the parts of the installation, including a mention of fleet commanders (two 4-star admirals) who keep their offices there.

So if Starbase 11's portmaster was Commodore Stone, it must be larger (or the portmaster would have even more responsibilities).

 

[Tigger]

So if Starbase 11's portmaster was Commodore Stone, it must be larger (or the portmaster would have even more responsibilities).

Not necessarily. Commodore might be the standard rank of a Starbase Commander or SB11 might be a more prestigious posting within the Federation (nothing against NAVSTA Norfolk, which I am sure is a plumb command assignment) and as such warrants an officer of Commodore rank.

It could also be as simple that Stone held the rank of Commodore when he was moved from, say, Starship command to command of SB11. We've seen at least two starships with Commodores as their CO and Commodore Wesley in "The Ultimate Computer" might normally be Lexington's CO (and not using it as his Task Force flag) as well, which would make at least three.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

I finally got through to the Naval Station Norfolk and muddled around a bit, finally finding a page for the base CO, a captain:

https://www.cnic.navy.mil/norfolksta/AboutCNIC/Biographies/CO/index.htm

The base XO is also a captain, interestingly enough.

Of course, there is other info on the web-site, including a reference to all the parts of the installation, including a mention of fleet commanders (two 4-star admirals) who keep their offices there.

So if Starbase 11's portmaster was Commodore Stone, it must be larger (or the portmaster would have even more responsibilities).

That's a similar command structure to our CG base in Alameda, CA. The Base CO is an O6, but he has three Admirals (flags) that work there, making his life... interesting.

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[WalkinMan]

I highly recommend the Starbase 11 mod for Elite Force, it's a full-scale replication of the areas seen in TOS, plus more--drydocks, medical facilities, rec area, weapons range--everything.

http://elitefarce.cottages.polycount.com/mods/starbase11/index.html

There are many screenshots there.

 

[Wingsley]

Very interesting, WalkinMan!

The mod managed to be quite true to the TOS eps set on SB 11.

Fascinating.

 

[WalkinMan]

I liked this mod a lot, it's like walking around a museum exhibit, with sound clips from the actual scenes in TOS to boot. Sort of like starship blueprints come to life.

Indeed, in this version of SB11, the civilian and Starfleet mixed presence is quite evident; visiting the apartment complex and touring the different quarters, from Samuel Cogley's to Vulcan crew, is very interesting. Also exploring the ground, underground, and orbital facilities, with dreadnought starships, shopping areas, commissary, etc. In addition to the central base bar where Kirk is seen with Areel Shaw, there is also a nightclub in the recreation facilities, next to a theatre IIRC...nice music. And the outdoor park with artificial lake (taking a swim reveals easter eggs) plus amphitheatre is quite refreshing.

Starbase 11 seems to be a very extensive complex, really the defining feature of the planet, and would fit in well even through the 24th century, with upgrades of course.

 

[Wingsley]

There also seems to be room for other, non-Starbase facilities nearby on the planet surface. Some civilians may live in this central complex, others may live and commute from separate unseen communities nearby.

The only thing I would change is the orbiting space station. That's a little too TMPish for me. It wouldn't have to be another K-7, but it would have to look more like TOS.

 

[MGagen]

A thing to keep in mind about Starbase 11 is that two completely different facilities were seen in two separate episodes that took place at the base. The thing that never occurred to me until it was pointed out recently is that Albert Whitlock seemed to have planned his two matte paintings to work together as a team.

In Menagerie, we see that beautiful day time cityscape with the ringed planet in the sky and a view down a long avenue studded with building cranes. In the distance are some dark hills.

In Court Martial, we have a night time painting of a cluster of office buildings with glowing windows. A distant double star is in the sky, but is obvious that the main sun has set as the scene is twilit.

What is not so obvious until you look for it, is that the installation seen in Menagerie is visible in the distance, down on the plain -- construction cranes and all. The Court Martial installation is actually in the hills seen in the Menagerie matte!

As a result, Starbase 11 is one of the best documented locations in all of Trek. We have seen it by day and by night. We have seen it from two widely divergent vantage points. And it's a BIG installation.

M.

 

[Wingsley]

Yes, it would not make sense for the Federation (or anyone else) to build a single, small base on a distant planet just because it has a breathable atmosphere.

Starbase 11 is obviously a huge industrial complex and fleet command center. Despite what some may think, I would expect some starships could be repaired, refitted or maybe even built there. It would not make sense to maintain a base like that in deep space and not make it fully functional and able to do just about anything that we saw being done above Earth in TMP. The fact that a flag officer apparently runs the base should give away how big and capable that installation would be. And the apparent speed with which the Enterprise was repaired (while the base's crew was also busy working on other ships) should make that clear as well.

Some folks got the impression from TMP on that Earth is the only place (or one of a few very rare places) where starships are built or rebuilt. That doesn't square with the kind of juggernaut, self-reliant, outward expanding spacefaring culture we see in all the TREK series and movies. The Federation is in the business of exploring and colonizing deep space. They would need a culture (and build their technology accordingly) so they could take it with them to deep space, and then perpetuate it further.

Why would they bother to put a station on the surface of barren Delta Vega unless they intended to use it someday? They did it becuase they did intend to use it, and the Delta Vega facility is just the beginning. Once they get around to needing a colony or starbase out there, they've already got a foothold. (or maybe the Delta Vega facility is a crude terraforming facility that Earth Fleet put there a century before to convert that previously uninhabitable world into one with a breathable atmosphere... like maybe... Starbase 11?)

I'm glad I started this thread. It reminded me of many unspoken aspect of TREK. And it seems I have my answer: Starbase 11 is likely a HUGE, multi-faceted port, command center, and colony, all in one.