How about we remove the Pah-Wraiths...

[Joe Washington]

And make the Founders former followers of the Prophets.

Before the Bajorans, the Founders worshiped the Prophets. Without the Prophets, the Founders wouldn't have been able to form themselves of the fluid and embrace their shape-shifting gift. But after many years of undying worship and devotion, the Founders felt rejected when the Prophets suddenly developed an interest in Bajor. The Prophets left them which devastated and enraged the Founders. Their desire for revenge became the basis for the founding of the Dominion. It was their plan that once they created enough forces and established more of a presence in the Gamma Quadrant, they intended on coming after the Prophets and making them pay for their neglect. Then centuries later, the wormhole opened in the Gamma Quadrant. The Founders sensed the Prophets’ hands in this and the next thing they knew ships from the Alpha Quadrant who were coming through the wormhole intruding into their territory. At first, the Founders stood back and observe. After tolerating the intrusions for a time, the Founders decided to take an active approach by using hostile force to keep any more ships from violating their space. Tensions began to mount between the Dominion and the Federation and when the Founders discovered the Prophets had an emissary who was a Starfleet captain, tensions raised even more. The Founders ordered all their soldiers to kill the emissary on the sight if they found him.


Do you think this would have made the Dominion War more interesting and the Founders more complex?

 

[Evil Ezri]

The Founders were strange with their wish to control everything. Understand their anger with the Federation ships and other ships that did come from the Wormhole. Yes, if there was a Wormhole that was stable that entered into say Federation space I could see the Federation would be upset to see the Borg exploring or other species. The pushback from a simple few ships to a wish to invade with a war that would destroy them or us at all cost was not really rational or necessary.

 

[Jono]

On the OPs comments, I don't think it would have made it any more interesting. Nor do I see why you would have to drop the Pah-Wraiths for this Dominion thing.

If the Dominion wanted a war against the Prophets they would just destroy the wormhole and be done with it...possibly after the blow up Bajor.

The Founders were strange with their wish to control everything.

Not strange at all. It was born out of their fear of solids. To protect themselves they felt the need to dictate order on the galaxy.

Understand their anger with the Federation ships and other ships that did come from the Wormhole. Yes, if there was a Wormhole that was stable that entered into say Federation space I could see the Federation would be upset to see the Borg exploring or other species.

The wormhole didn't open into Dominion space. The Dominion's territory didn't even seem to be that close to the wormhole at all.

The Federation didn't seem to care when non-Dominion people came through. It was the manner in which the Dominion engaged with the Federation, they were aggressive and confrontational and the Federation is not a push over. It will fight back if necessary.

The pushback from a simple few ships to a wish to invade with a war that would destroy them or us at all cost was not really rational or necessary.

The war would never have destroyed the Dominion. Given that it went from five convoy of ships and a few months of building to a force, when coupled with the Cardassians was strong enough to tackle the Klingons and Federation shows their strength and power. There is every possibility that even though it lost the war the Dominion itself is even stronger than ever because the war was fought in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. If it destroyed the powers in the Federation's region so be it, that's a couple of problems gone.

Was it necessary, in the Dominion's eyes yes. They had discovered large and powerful solid run empires that were aggressive and militaristic. Disorderly empires that were in need of order.

 

[DevilEyes]

And make the Founders former followers of the Prophets.

Before the Bajorans, the Founders worshiped the Prophets. Without the Prophets, the Founders wouldn't have been able to form themselves of the fluid and embrace their shape-shifting gift. But after many years of undying worship and devotion, the Founders felt rejected when the Prophets suddenly developed an interest in Bajor. The Prophets left them which devastated and enraged the Founders. Their desire for revenge became the basis for the founding of the Dominion. It was their plan that once they created enough forces and established more of a presence in the Gamma Quadrant, they intended on coming after the Prophets and making them pay for their neglect. Then centuries later, the wormhole opened in the Gamma Quadrant. The Founders sensed the Prophets’ hands in this and the next thing they knew ships from the Alpha Quadrant who were coming through the wormhole intruding into their territory. At first, the Founders stood back and observe. After tolerating the intrusions for a time, the Founders decided to take an active approach by using hostile force to keep any more ships from violating their space. Tensions began to mount between the Dominion and the Federation and when the Founders discovered the Prophets had an emissary who was a Starfleet captain, tensions raised even more. The Founders ordered all their soldiers to kill the emissary on the sight if they found him.


Do you think this would have made the Dominion War more interesting and the Founders more complex?

No, and no.

I like the Founders as they are, and I think the concept of their race is one of the best in Star Trek. Their motivations and mindset in DS9 make a lot more sense to me than some jealous religious nuts angry at their former gods.

I do like your title, though. I'd very much have liked to get rid of the Pah-wraiths, at least as they were portrayed on DS9.

Or, even better: DS9 could have had the Prophets and the Pah-wraiths in conflict with each other, but instead of making it into a cheesy Good vs Evil fight, present them as just two warring factions of aliens who both have their legitimate reasons, but neither gives a damn about the humanoids, except when they need to use them for their ends. (That's basically what the Prophets seemed like in the show as it was, despite the desperate attempts of the writers to paint them as 'good'.) There would be no nonsense like the Pah-wraiths wanting to destroy 'all life in the galaxy' for unexplained reasons, i.e. just so they could be eeeevil. And get rid of the red eyes, for the love of... whatever.

 

[Joe Washington]

Maybe the Pah-Wraiths could have been the power behind the throne sorta of speak. Maybe the Founders worship them as gods and obey each of their commands with
blind obedience. Their devotion to the Pah-Wraiths could have been the reason why they formed the Dominion.

 

[DevilEyes]

Maybe the Pah-Wraiths could have been the power behind the throne sorta of speak. Maybe the Founders worship them as gods and obey each of their commands with
blind obedience. Their devotion to the Pah-Wraiths could have been the reason why they formed the Dominion.

Ugh, no. I hate that idea even more.

That's the last thing the show needed, its entire main storyline ruined with the 'evil spirits' nonsense, instead of just Dukat and some season 6 and season 7 episodes.

 

[Kegg]

I think the basic idea is right, and by basic idea I mean this:

The pah-wraiths were created to be DS9's evil gods, in contrast to the good gods of the Prophets. But we already had such a group, the Founders.

If they wanted a religious war they should have played on that concept a little more, and since it'd be about a tension between two rival belief systems rather than a renactment of basic religious dualism it'd be more realistic and more interesting - angels and demons rarely fight among us, but men of differing faiths often do.

 

[DevilEyes]

I think the basic idea is right, and by basic idea I mean this:

The pah-wraiths were created to be DS9's evil gods, in contrast to the good gods of the Prophets. But we already had such a group, the Founders.

If they wanted a religious war they should have played on that concept a little more, and since it'd be about a tension between two rival belief systems rather than a renactment of basic religious dualism it'd be more realistic and more interesting - angels and demons rarely fight among us, but men of differing faiths often do.

In that case, the only planet that would need to be involved in the religious war was Bajor. Nobody else - apart from Sisko - cared about the Prophets or the Pah-wraiths. So if the main antagonistic group were the opponents of the Prophets, there would be no reason for them to antagonize or attack the Federation, or try to conquer the Alpha Quadrant, or involve the Klingons, the Breen or even Cardassians (who, apart from Insane Dukat, only ever cared about Bajor's resources, not their gods or demons) in the conflict.

 

[Kegg]

In that case, the only planet that would need to be involved in the religious war was Bajor.

Obviously they'd be the only ones to whom this specific religious conflict mattered, yes.

So if the main antagonistic group were the opponents of the Prophets, there would be no reason for them to antagonize or attack the Federation,

Don't think I made myself clear here. I said that if DS9 already had evil gods and if they wanted to do religious war and conflict the Founders were the ones to use, I wasn't saying to turn the Founders into beings who had a solely anti-Prophet agenda.

 

[TeutonicNights]

It might have been interesting if there had been "good Founders" as well, like Laas and Odo (and other Founder dissidents and changeling infants) forming a "good Great Link".

 

[Jono]

Maybe the Pah-Wraiths could have been the power behind the throne sorta of speak. Maybe the Founders worship them as gods and obey each of their commands with
blind obedience. Their devotion to the Pah-Wraiths could have been the reason why they formed the Dominion.

Strangely I find that a terrible idea, however when they did that in Stargate: SG1 I enjoyed it.