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Spoilers Hot Take: Chibnall didn't obliterate Doctor Who's continuity. He actually fixed it.

OCD Geek

OCD Geek

Captain
Captain
Nothing in The Timeless Children actually contradicts what either TV series has told us about The Doctor's childhood. It was always vague and opaque. It was the 7th and 8th Doctor novels that actually went in-depth about it.

Hell, we've even seen Time Lords change age after regenerating. There's nothing keeping the first Doctor of the latest post-mind wipe cycle (Hartnell's Doctor) from initially regenerating into a child. The child who slept in The Eleventh Doctor's cradle. The child seen in Listen. The child who grew up alongside The Master.

A fuck ton of the Wilderness Era Whoniverse just became an alternate Whoniverse. Which works surprisingly well with both Zagreus's visions of alternate timelines and At Childhood's End recent creation of alternate timelines in 1990 shortly after the Classic Series ended.

Liz Sladen's Big Finish audio series Sarah Jane Smith fits neatly back into continuity now. It's just part of the 7th & 8th Doctor novel/Bernice Summerfield/Faction Paradox universe.

Also, the "Ground Zero" debacle is solved. That wasn't the mainline continuity Ace (Classic Who, Big Finish, Gallifrey, Sarah Jane Adventures reference, At Childhood's End). That was the novel version of Ace that split off shortly after the Classic Series (Classic Who, Virgin New Adventures, Doctor Who Magazine strips, The New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield). Which means only the 7th Doctor strips are part of this continuity. As is half of The Company of Friends: "Benny's Story" and "Fitz's Story". As is The Worlds of Big Finish crossover event. Basically, anything with Benny in it is now part of that continuity. The Eighth of March and The Legacy of Time now work as brief glimpses of that universe's NuWho era world.

As for Braxiatel and Iris Wildthyme's appearances in both continuities? Well, their timelines were always delightfully convoluted anyway. Iris has always been heavily hinted to come from another universe (The Obverse, not the alt-Whoniverse I'm now proposing). And at least some of Braxiatel's appearances have been implied to be a Brax from another universe. Universe hopping seems to come quite naturally to them.

The only remaining continuity conflict is Benny's brief appearance in an episode of Gallifrey.
 
All of sudden I hear the voices of many Whovians sound like this.

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Jason
 
Someone on Reddit posted a theory for Chibnall's five season endgame that would fix people's remaining problems with the whole "Timeless Child" thing too, provided Chibnall actually does something similar.

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/...eory_on_how_chibnall_is_going_to_end_his_run/
The doctor is dealing with the usual end of season threat (Daleks, Cybermen, Daleks, pick one) when the Tardis takes her into the future where she meets up with what she believes is here last regeneration, the final Doctor. Bonus points if it turns out to be Tom Baker as the curator. They work together to defeat the threat, but the doctor is critically injured and her future self is killed in the process. She then witnesses her future self regenerate one last time into a child... The Timeless child. Before she, herself, regenerates,, she instructs the Tardis to take the child somewhere safe. The Tardis opens up a portal in space and time and sends the child through it where she is then discovered by a lone Galifreyan explorer.

The doctor's life is one big time loop making her the ultimate boot strap paradox.
 
OCD Geek said:
Someone on Reddit posted a theory for Chibnall's five season endgame that would fix people's remaining problems with the whole "Timeless Child" thing too, provided Chibnall actually does something similar.

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/...eory_on_how_chibnall_is_going_to_end_his_run/
The doctor is dealing with the usual end of season threat (Daleks, Cybermen, Daleks, pick one) when the Tardis takes her into the future where she meets up with what she believes is here last regeneration, the final Doctor. Bonus points if it turns out to be Tom Baker as the curator. They work together to defeat the threat, but the doctor is critically injured and her future self is killed in the process. She then witnesses her future self regenerate one last time into a child... The Timeless child. Before she, herself, regenerates,, she instructs the Tardis to take the child somewhere safe. The Tardis opens up a portal in space and time and sends the child through it where she is then discovered by a lone Galifreyan explorer.

The doctor's life is one big time loop making her the ultimate boot strap paradox.
Click to expand...
Ugh. I've heard that theory twice (the basics of it) now and I really don't like it.
 
OCD Geek said:
Someone on Reddit posted a theory for Chibnall's five season endgame that would fix people's remaining problems with the whole "Timeless Child" thing too, provided Chibnall actually does something similar.

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/...eory_on_how_chibnall_is_going_to_end_his_run/
The doctor is dealing with the usual end of season threat (Daleks, Cybermen, Daleks, pick one) when the Tardis takes her into the future where she meets up with what she believes is here last regeneration, the final Doctor. Bonus points if it turns out to be Tom Baker as the curator. They work together to defeat the threat, but the doctor is critically injured and her future self is killed in the process. She then witnesses her future self regenerate one last time into a child... The Timeless child. Before she, herself, regenerates,, she instructs the Tardis to take the child somewhere safe. The Tardis opens up a portal in space and time and sends the child through it where she is then discovered by a lone Galifreyan explorer.

The doctor's life is one big time loop making her the ultimate boot strap paradox.
Click to expand...

If Chibnall isn’t already there, that would make him - easily - the most hated showrunner in sci-fi TV history.
 
Nightowl1701 said:
If Chibnall isn’t already there, that would make him - easily - the most hated showrunner in sci-fi TV history.
Click to expand...
That should work well. The NuWho patterns seems to either hate a show-runner with inexplicable animal-like ferocity or defend them with fanatical blinders attached. It's kind of put me off the whole show, sadly.
 
It’s obvious how this will all be resolved, if you think about it, there is really only one way.

The Doctor returns to Gallifrey to pick over the ruins of her home, but something is wrong. The citadel, far from ruined, bustles with the lives of a million Gallifreyans.

She is called up to the chambers of state where she finds the Master, Romana, government officials, the sisters of karn, et al, sat discussing matters of government,

Before she gets chance to speak, the doctor catches the Master’s eye. He looks back at her, a cheeky grin, a raised eyebrow. The Doctor takes a moment to work it all out, before the realisation is writ large upon her face,
“Oh you” she says, “you really had me there!”
The Master indulges in a short throaty chuckle before returning to the business at hand.
 
XCV330 said:
That should work well. The NuWho patterns seems to either hate a show-runner with inexplicable animal-like ferocity or defend them with fanatical blinders attached. It's kind of put me off the whole show, sadly.
Click to expand...

It's the norm, but usually the loudest cries are against the current show-runner, then when the next one takes over suddenly the old one, (who only a few months ago they claimed was a talentless hack who ruined the show), was suddenly a creative genius and if only they were still running things the world would be a better place. There's a tendency to also blindly criticise the current show for doing things that have always been done - case in point, some people have been tearing into Thirteen for exposition because she was explaining stuff to her companions, and this was an obvious sign of bad writing. Yet strangely Nine explaining to Rose about the fate of the Earth in End Of The World, or any of the multiple times he or Ten, Eleven or Twelve explained anything was perfectly fine and acceptable.

Someone was stating that Chibnall should be replaced with a "Real Fan" of the show to give it some respect. Which real fan? The one who likes the work of all three show runners? The one who hates Chibnall but loves RTD and Moffat? The one who loves Moffat but hates RTD and Chibnall? The one who loves from RTD onwards but hates classic? Or hates everything from RTD onwards? Who thinks The Looms are a fantastic idea and should be canonised? Who hates The Looms with a passion? Who thinks that the show should use new aliens? Should only use the old aliens? Just in Series 12 Chibnall has made more nods and name-drops to lore and the classic history than RTD did during his entire run, and somehow that's not enough fan-service.
 
OCD Geek said:
Nothing in The Timeless Children actually contradicts what either TV series has told us about The Doctor's childhood.
Click to expand...
But it does change what we know about the history of the Time Lords, Rassilon and Omega's contributions, where regeneration comes from (prolonged exposure to the Time Vortex), and supplants the Doctor's origins on the planet to being of an unknown race and species.

The series of rapid-fire retcons was an exercises in laziness. Cart before the horse, destination rather than journey, props over characters.

How hard would it have been to cast new actors to play the frequently villainious Omega, Rassilon or the Black Guardian to menace the Doctor about her origins for series 12? Instead, we get the Master having wiped out the entire race, billions of people, off screen and never explained. Destination rather than journey.


The ancient Galifreyan woman (who doesn't have any speaking lines) who found the child-Doctor (who doesn't have a name or any speaking lines), inject a whole bunch of lore into the show via exposition provided by the Master. We witness two props (because they aren't characters) alter 57 years of canon, and counter established facts about Time Lord physiology, Galifreyan history, and the Doctor herself/himselves. On the subject of props, Galifrey was prop this season. Sure, Moffat turned it to a goal/destination for 11 and then a prop for Clara's revival with 12. Chibnall blew it all up to set up a bad series of half-baked retcons. When there were characters he could've utilized to tell his story.


Which leads me to my final point, cart before the horse. What was Chibnall trying to accomplish with this arc? The Doctor wasn't originally a white man (Hartnell) or black woman (Jo Martin) but a nameless, origin-less black girl found by nameless white woman scientist? Somehow, I can't see what was gained from this exercise. Aside from an aggressive-progressive agenda that the BBC has been inflating for several years now.


There was potential for a story here. A story with characters who have names, speaking lines and agendas that run parallel or counter to our protagonist. But Chibnall spun too many plates and was to deadset on changing things to suit his vision of the show, and now the show is suffering for it. The saying goes, "gets the last word in, by changing the first word".

Boring.

As to how to fix all of this. Say it was The Meddling Monk (Time Lord) who messed up the Doctor's history. Or make it a scheme of the Great Intelligence.
 
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OCD Geek said:
Nothing in The Timeless Children actually contradicts what either TV series has told us about The Doctor's childhood. It was always vague and opaque. It was the 7th and 8th Doctor novels that actually went in-depth about it.
Click to expand...

I've never had a problem with Doctor Who continuity, nothing needed to be fixed, because, for most of the show's life, the Doctor's history wasn't that important. It didn't matter. And, personally, timey wimey is a much better fix than adding all of this stuff that doesn't really alter the "present" of the character. She's still who she is, she's still going to do what she's always done. It didn't really reveal anything that helps us understand the Doctor better. She's been a hero that's she's always been.

Timey wimey is nice because it's simple, whimsical and points out that continuity doesn't matter, the story, the adventure does.

I don't want Doctor Who to get bogged down in the mud like Star Trek does. And it's fandom.

OCD Geek said:
Someone on Reddit posted a theory for Chibnall's five season endgame that would fix people's remaining problems with the whole "Timeless Child" thing too, provided Chibnall actually does something similar.

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/...eory_on_how_chibnall_is_going_to_end_his_run/
The doctor is dealing with the usual end of season threat (Daleks, Cybermen, Daleks, pick one) when the Tardis takes her into the future where she meets up with what she believes is here last regeneration, the final Doctor. Bonus points if it turns out to be Tom Baker as the curator. They work together to defeat the threat, but the doctor is critically injured and her future self is killed in the process. She then witnesses her future self regenerate one last time into a child... The Timeless child. Before she, herself, regenerates,, she instructs the Tardis to take the child somewhere safe. The Tardis opens up a portal in space and time and sends the child through it where she is then discovered by a lone Galifreyan explorer.

The doctor's life is one big time loop making her the ultimate boot strap paradox.
Click to expand...

I think that's a terrible idea.
I don't know why anyone is trying to "fix" something that isn't broken.
 
If you want to do something original make your own IP. If you work in an established IP, sure build on it but don't retconn things because you can. That's just disrespectful to the work done before. Seriously you are going to trash decades of Doctor who lore to satisfy your infantile wish to explain a 1 minute scene from "The Brain of Morbius"?? Chibnall is proof that putting a hardcore zealot in charge of a franchise is a BAD idea.
 
OCD Geek said:
Someone on Reddit posted a theory for Chibnall's five season endgame that would fix people's remaining problems with the whole "Timeless Child" thing too, provided Chibnall actually does something similar.

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/...eory_on_how_chibnall_is_going_to_end_his_run/
The doctor is dealing with the usual end of season threat (Daleks, Cybermen, Daleks, pick one) when the Tardis takes her into the future where she meets up with what she believes is here last regeneration, the final Doctor. Bonus points if it turns out to be Tom Baker as the curator. They work together to defeat the threat, but the doctor is critically injured and her future self is killed in the process. She then witnesses her future self regenerate one last time into a child... The Timeless child. Before she, herself, regenerates,, she instructs the Tardis to take the child somewhere safe. The Tardis opens up a portal in space and time and sends the child through it where she is then discovered by a lone Galifreyan explorer.

The doctor's life is one big time loop making her the ultimate boot strap paradox.
Click to expand...

This seemed obvious and inevtiable to me from the get-go, and I posted about it before. Not on Reddit, though.

IMO he's neither broken nor fixed it, just made some brief distractive noise.
 
Lonemagpie said:
IMO he's neither broken nor fixed it, just made some brief distractive noise.
Click to expand...

This. And I get it, sometimes you need noise to get attention, but... still. None of it was particularly additive to the story.

It's tough, because I think there's an expectation of a character arc when we are watching TV now. We want to see characters change and grow. The Doctor was built on a platform of he/she just IS. For all of the classic run there wasn't a "character arc" per se. The character didn't change.

But, starting with the new series, that was built in. RTD did it subtly, I think. And Moffat dug in deeper with Capaldi's "Am I a good man?" And now here we are with a "character arc" and I think it's a dud.
 
Haven't watched any of the Thirteenth Doctor stuff, but am chiming in here to say that the assertion from @M.A.C.O. that the "ancient Gallifreyan woman" who "found the Timeless Child" is "nameless" is factually inaccurate, as she does in fact have a name (a piece of information that I found with very little effort): Tecteun.
 
DigificWriter said:
Haven't watched any of the Thirteenth Doctor stuff, but am chiming in here to say that the assertion from @M.A.C.O. that the "ancient Gallifreyan woman" who "found the Timeless Child" is "nameless" is factually inaccurate, as she does in fact have a name (a piece of information that I found with very little effort): Tecteun.
Click to expand...
Thank you, for correcting me. I got a little too passionate and overlooked the character's obnoxious name. She still has no speaking lines. My annoyance with Chibs has not reduced at all.
 
The Nth Doctor said:
Ugh. I've heard that theory twice (the basics of it) now and I really don't like it.
Click to expand...
It expands the problem I have with trying to make the Doctor's past more interesting than the stories we can actually watch, compounding it by making the whole of the Doctor circumscribed and finite.
 
More spoilers, there's a second take:
http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/2nd-opinion-part-1-the-timeless-children-doctor-who-no-more-93329.htm
  • Sacha Dhawan’s Master completely carried the episode. He was channelling the Simm Master too much at times, but was still fun to watch thanks to his raw energy.
  • Dhawan also brought out the best in Jodie Whittaker again.
  • Ko Sharmus was even more awesome this episode. How I was hoping he’d have a last minute reveal.
  • The CGI was generally excellent (the Gallifrey time-lapse was ace), and most of the music was nice.
  • The flashback scenes were a reminder of how good the show used to be (excluding the Chibnall era ones and the Absorbaloff!)
And, aside from the Timeless Child reveal, here’s what I didn’t like:

  • For the majority of the run time, the Doctor was given almost nothing to do other than be completely passive.
  • Exposition overload!
  • Tecteun is shown in a glamorous light despite basically experimenting on, and you could argue, murdering children.
  • Ashad and the Cyberman were ultimately pointless and disposed of far too easily.
  • The Cyber Masters looked absolutely ridiculous and made no sense.
  • The Brendan mystery turned out to be a damp squib. It did not deserve all that time in the opening half of the story given how quickly it is all brushed over.
  • Yaz is the “best person” again. Because Chibnall tells us so.
  • All the companions come out completely unscathed. Where was the danger? This is especially surprising given at least one is leaving.
  • Ko Sharmus died because the Doctor is shown to be too cowardly to be an actual hero. Does this seem in character when the Tenth Doctor sacrificed himself to save Wilf, even against Wilf’s wishes?
  • Ripping off Tennant’s “What?! … What?!” Sorry, don’t even try.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with 80~95% of that with ease.

I dunno. Canon is altered at times, sometimes just doing something without researching previous canon can be deemed insulting too. There's no way to win, or consistency in something as long as DW's run. Add in that there are many ways to improve upon or even undo (completely or partially) this epic change and with harming nothing...

What he does with this in moving forward - since there aren't many more shocking developments he can use to throw off clunky dialogue arcs and passive style... - especially as the consolidated figure revealed yet another 300k VANISHED due to youtube clips of the episode from official sources combined with news articles shows Chibnall's heading down the wrong path or took the wrong approach. Even if the AI went up one point. They have fewer viewers but those that remained are hugging it. At least for now. That's probably a hurdle.
 
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