Hope and Fear thoughts

[Voth commando1]

This an interesting episode both the A-Plot and B-Plots have something to offer and tie together well.

Seven and Janeway are butting heads and Seven is increasingly resentful and bitter. She at one points states she wishes to leave.

Arturis as a villain is also interesting and sympathetic-he has a fairly legitimate reason to be angry at Voyager.

You see his people had a vested interest in a Species 8472 victory in the Borg-Undine war. Voyager's interference ended all hopes for his people who had apparently outwitted the Borg for some time.

This episode really helps develop Janeway and Seven's relationship, the lasting consequences of Scorpion, and shows just how intent the Voyager crew is on getting home(even to the extent of ignoring their instinctual suspicions).

Thoughts? Opinions on the episode?

 

[Refuge]

I saw this not that long ago and I think it was an important 'butterfly effect' of Voyager siding with the Borg and how it changed the balance in the Delta Quadrant. Arturis was both quite capable and tragic. His meeting his fate in the end was a bitter sacrifice.

I don't know. I was left not feeling too proud of our heroes. They benefit yet again by the slipstream technology and Seven and Janeway get to indulge in their relationship.

I loved the concept of the 'Dauntless' though.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I thought it was a reach that Arturus could fool people into thinking Dauntless was a Starfleet ship just by changing the lighting and graphics. If it was a change on par with how Doctor Who's TARDIS interior changes to suit the mood, yeah. But it was literally just graphics and lighting.

And the slipstream engine core being a plasma ball and four bubbly lava lamps was hilarious.

Oh, and Arturus' head looked like a peanut.

Other than that, I really liked the episode.

 

[Refuge]

To be fair as smoke and mirrors as the Dauntless was it did impart some slipstream technology.. or was I entirely fooled too??

 

[Sophie74656]

It's not my favorite epiosode and I didn't like it's use as a season finale. Personally I rather prefer cliff hangers.

But overall it's pretty good. The concept of Arturus being angry with Voyager was interesting. I completely understand where he was coming from. Makes you wonder, what would have happened if Voyager had not stumbled into the Borg/8472 conflict. It does seem that 8472 was winning, or at least had the Borg on the run. Would they have ultimately destroyed the Borg? But would they stop there? "Your galaxy will be purged" Would they go on to destroying all life in the galaxy?

 

[Tracy Trek]

That statement from them could be interpreted that they saw no difference between the Borg and any other species. And they would destroy everyone.

But would they stop there? "Your galaxy will be purged" Would they go on to destroying all life in the galaxy?

 

[Voth commando1]

I doubt Arturis people really understood Species 8472 just that they were thrashing the Borg and at least temporarily saving them in the process.

 

[Refuge]

I don't think Janeway understood the true situation either. I suspect Species 8472 would have remained in their own realm if they hadn't been attacked. Their (protective) desire to purge the weak or threats to their cellular integrity was nothing like the Borg's mission to assimilate. In fact after 'In The Flesh' Species 8472 seem to be willing to consider remaining in fluid space. The Borg at no stage stopped being an ongoing threat.

Arturis and his people were collateral damage to Borg and Federation superiority in both warfare, regards the Borg, and interference, regards Voyager.

 

[Voth commando1]

Species 8472 was a pretty alien species and In the Flesh didn't prove anything except that some members of their species were open to negotiation. I recall one of the higher ranking ones expressing doubt that his superiors would be open to further negotiation with the Federation.

There is no guarantee that if 8472 one they wouldn't have gone on a genocidal rampage anyway which would have probably resulted in Arturis's people being destroyed anyway.

 

[Refuge]

Maybe but how many Species 8472 encounters involving their aggression to systematically take over alien races happened after In the Flesh? If they were on the same kind of multi-quadrant and realm mission as the Borg they surely would've surfaced again. Theirs was more to fight in defence with a 'purge' statement than to leech off other species like the Borg.

 

[Prax]

Love this episode...one of my favorites. I even started a thread about it once.

If 8472 was really a threat to the galaxy and not just the Borg, I'm sure Arturis' people had a plan to deal with it, whether that means negotiating with them or closing off their dimension or something.

I don't think Janeway was wrong necessarily, but Arturis was right in that she was at least partially helping the Borg for selfish reasons. She had all the tools to fight off 8472 without the Borg. Her benefit from the Borg alliance was simply crossing their space.

However, if 8472 really was planning on Death-Starring every world (and not just Borg) those deaths would be on Janeway's head for not acting immediately when she had the opportunity. It's a catch-22, the mark of a good story.

In the end, I don't see how the Borg survived anyway. They never actually got that nanoprobe technology. Did Janeway just scare 8472 back into their own realm for a while, until they decided to target the Federation?

 

[Refuge]

I don't think Janeway was wrong necessarily, but Arturis was right in that she was at least partially helping the Borg for selfish reasons. She had all the tools to fight off 8472 without the Borg. Her benefit from the Borg alliance was simply crossing their space.

However, if 8472 really was planning on Death-Starring every world (and not just Borg) those deaths would be on Janeway's head for not acting immediately when she had the opportunity. It's a catch-22, the mark of a good story.

That is a good point.

Plus we are led to believe that Species 8472 are given the nano weapon technology (In The Flesh). That was a big trade off. Do you do that if you really think a species is a mindless enemy?

 

[Markonian]

I really like that Starfleet put the Dauntless design Voyager got to good use. We see it as Federation vessel in a potential 26th century future, and in STO its launched as genuine Experimental Science Vessel in 2410.

Have the Eaglemoss model and love it.

But why would the ship lack replicators?

 

[Sophie74656]

That statement from them could be interpreted that they saw no difference between the Borg and any other species. And they would destroy everyone.

I think so too. The Borg were their first encounter with a species from our galaxy I think. So they may assume that all life on this side is the same so they feel they need to wipe it all out.

 

[Catarina]

Initially I thought the galaxy purge threat was the remark from one cocky brute and not the majority.

 

[Refuge]

Initially I thought the galaxy purge threat was the remark from one cocky brute and not the majority.

Translated through .. Kes. If Species 8472 has galaxy purging on their minds they would've done it before Voyager got to Endgame.

 

[Sophie74656]

Translated through .. Kes. If Species 8472 has galaxy purging on their minds they would've done it before Voyager got to Endgame.

They were working on it. They even made several stations to practice being human....If Janeway had not convinced Boothby that they were peaceful there probably would have been an invasion.

In my own personal head canon there was an invasion anyway....but that's another story

 

[Markonian]

They were working on it. They even made several stations to practice being human....If Janeway had not convinced Boothby that they were peaceful there probably would have been an invasion.

In my own personal head canon there was an invasion anyway....but that's another story

Have you ever played Star Trek: Armada II or STO?

 

[Sophie74656]

Have you ever played Star Trek: Armada II or STO?

No, not really into games

 

[Markonian]

No, not really into games

Ah. They feature Undine/8472 invasions in 2377 and 2410.