Homefront/Paradise Lost Issue

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Bry_Sinclair, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. Mattadd

    Mattadd Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I agree that a lack of evidence doesn't prove that to be the case, but I think it's likely based on the fact that we see Earth quite often in those 24 seasons and a lot of crew are from Earth and at no point does anybody reference an Earth government. It's certainly possible, but that's a lot of Earthlings and a lot of time without anybody mentioning an Earth government, I think it's more likely than not that no such government exists by the 24th century.
     
  2. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    In the US, states (and state capitals) continue to exist even though there is a Federal government which exists above them. Provinces in Canada work the same way. So I can only ask, why can't this be true in the Federation? Where is the evidence - the proof - that they do not?

    The Federation is not a unitary state. It is a state, yes, but one that is made up of a collection of member worlds, each with its own government, but forming part of a greater whole. The fact that the capital buildings of the Federation - and of Starfleet Command - are located on Earth, is IRRELEVANT.
     
  3. Mattadd

    Mattadd Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Read my post. My first sentence was I agree a lack of evidence doesn't prove that to be the case.
     
  4. Mattadd

    Mattadd Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Absence of evidence suggests the possibility, and in my view, likelihood, that there was no Earth government. It is not proof that there was no government. However it would explain the OP's original query, therefore it is one theory applicable to the point of this thread.
     
  5. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, actually, it doesn't.
    Exactly.

    That question has already been answered. The writers of Homefront/Paradise Lost considered having United Earth forces appear in the story arc (and be "federalized" by Jaresh-Inyo) but this got cut for TIME. That is literally the only reason they got cut. Not because the concept doesn't exist, but because there wasn't time to tell that part of the story.
     
  6. Mattadd

    Mattadd Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    That's a meta explanation not an in-universe explanation. You seriously don't think that 24 seasons of nobody mentioning an Earth government when much of the cast was from Earth, and the shows visited Earth multiple times doesn't suggest there is no Earth government? You're entitled to that opinion but I strongly disagree with you. I don't really care what the writers left on the cutting room floor because it has no relevance to canon. It didn't make it in the final cut, and no references to any Earth government in any of the 24th century series did, I believe that means there was no Earth government. I am not, nor ever have, claimed that this is proof there is no such government.
     
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  7. UnknownSample

    UnknownSample Commodore Commodore

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    I just meant that the makers of TOS probably just gave up the United Earth business when they decided to have the Enterprise be from a United Federation of Planets, instead. We're supposed to forget about "United Earth". It was retroactively wiped out.
     
  8. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    It's a show about exploration, not politics. They spent as little time talking about how the Federation and its members are governed as possible. We shouldn't be concluding anything from what didn't talk about.
     
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  9. Mattadd

    Mattadd Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    TNG and VOY were shows about exploration. DS9 was almost entirely about politics.
     
  10. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    Not 'almost entirely'. It was about conflicts of all sorts, and some conflicts included politics. The brief glimpse into Federation politics wasn't enough to say much of anything about how it worked. A lot of the politics we saw were other socieities. We learned as much about Cardassia, Bajor, Romulus, Klingons, and the Dominion as we did about Earth.
     
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  11. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    What would mentioing the United Earth Government add to the plot of most episodes? Not much I suspect.
     
  12. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    Mainly it would provide a thrill for fans of the original series, tying DS9 in with Tommorow Is Yesterday.
     
  13. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What's this nonsense of absence of evidence not being evidence of absence? Of course it is, almost invariably, in every practical sense. In reality, it's the only sort of evidence that has any value - statistical evidence. Because absolutes are an illusion or an oversimplification and of no practical interest.

    Brainless parroting of false "wisdoms" is the great American art of debating? Sheesh.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Vice Admiral Admiral

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    To say that Earth doesn't have a planetary government would be like saying that Vulcan, Andor, and every other Federation member doesn't. It would be on par to the United Nations being in charge of all matters that happen within all it's member states, from defence to economy to what day bins get collected.
     
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  15. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As someone who earned a doctorate and earns some living studying territorial governments, I would not be surprised if an United Earth government had atrophied. Obviously, I like the idea that Earth would have a strong government, making its own laws, funding its own developmental projects, etc. However, Earth is effectively the capital of the Federation, and as such, the people would have a special relationship with the governance of the Federation. Government and administration would be local industries, just as they are in DC, London and Paris. People in these places don't struggle to be heard by the state: they have their hands on the levers of the state in many instances. It would seem natural that people in that circumstance would find some state functions to be redundant, even though they might be critical to other members. Would Earth have a militia? Maybe, but why make it a priority, either as a planet or as individuals, when Starfleet has a major presence on Earth? Why use an Earth government to organize projects when one can reach Paris by transporter? Yes, there's probably some form of government, but it would likely be weak when compared to the governments of Vulcan, Betazed, etc. The Bajoran Militia probably could kick the ass of whatever Earth force exists.

    In the end, I would have found any attempt to show Earth government in action to be somewhat forced. I'm sure it's there, but it would contribute little,IMO, and its presence within the story should be perfunctory.
     
  16. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ I'd suspect that the Earth government would be quite complacent what with having the Federation Council and Starfleet Command on it doorstep, so such things as planetary defence they'd be quite happy to hand over to the fleet (even if there never seems to be many ships near/in the Sol System at the time of a big emergency). However, it would still be a thing I'd think no matter what shape it would be in.
     
  17. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I still don't understand why everyone thinks it's such a big deal that the Federation capital buildings are located on Earth. Why does this somehow make an Earth government invalid? I literally don't see any connection at all. :confused: :shrug:

    Yes, yes, there's Washington, DC. But there's also Ottawa. ;)
     
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  18. velour

    velour Commander Red Shirt

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    If that was indeed what happened, then it was missed opportunity, as other posters have already written. It would have clarified matters. It would be logical that Earth like any other Federation member would have its own sovereign government.

    I would like to think that United Earth had its own government, but from what was actually shown, the episode gave the impression that there wasn't a United Earth government or leader. Also, from what I remember, there wasn't any dialogue or scene in the episode that even implied that there was a United Earth government.

    In TVH, it was the UFP president who made the planetary distress signal, not a United Earth leader, if there was one. In both instances of Earth in crisis, where were the Earth leader(s)?
     
  19. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, there is variety, making every possibility at least somewhat probable.
     
  20. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It wasn't just Earth in crisis. The whale probe was laying waste to everything it passed.