Holographic Rights?

[EmoBorg]

I studied Gaudiya Vaishnavism. That is the philosophy that spurned the modern day Hare Krishna movement in the west.
I am not a Hare Krishna but one of the things that i learned from them is how their philosophy classifies life.

Life is classified into two general types

Achit : without Sentience
Chit : with Sentience

(chit meaning "sentience" in Sanskrit and A meaning "without")

Any being that achieves sentience deserves the same rights as other sentient beings.

When you talk about holograms rights, It is not about whether they are alive or not. It is about whether they have self awareness or not.

Humans and animals are both carbon based lifeforms but we do accept that humans life takes precedence over all other animal life on earth solely because humans are self aware. Being Self Aware is an important part of being sentient.

Humans beings are nothing more than animals with self awareness. Maybe on some other planets elseway, there could be self aware beings of plants, fungi or algae origins. The state of self awareness could be extended to robots and holograms if they fulfill the conditions of being Self Aware.

If holograms are self aware, then they are sentient to me.
If they are not self aware, because of their limited programming, then they are Achit to me.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I think Starfleet's claim is based on the idea they found him first, therefore, he belongs to Starfleet.

If Data was built using Starfleet technology and equipment, they may have a small point, but at that point they had no idea who even built him.

Other than that, the issue seemed silly-if they let Data swear an oath to Starfleet (and he must have) that alone suggests his rights and independence.

About Voyager, I think the writing overdid it a bit. Some of these holograms were emotional, intense and neurotic from the beginning, when there no reason they should have been.

First the Doctor, then an alien hologram that goes bonkers and kill everyone on his ship, then a ship of holograms programmed to be prey that turns on all non holograms. Then an arrogant snobby EMH on an advanced Starship.

Then finally holograms mining on an asteroid who take the time to read books.

It was like it was trying to be "Measure of a man" revisited but being all over the place.

 

[BillJ]

I wonder how much the results are skewed by people's dislike of Voyager?

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I wonder how much the results are skewed by people's dislike of Voyager?

A strong possibility I would assume

It's not so much a dislike of VOY that clouds my thoughts on this, but more it was a non-issue from the beginning so why waste screen time on it, just because they have a holographic character.

 

[Use of Time]

I wonder how much the results are skewed by people's dislike of Voyager?

That might atually be a legitimate reason. The irony is that Robert Picardo's character was one of the better things to take away from the show.

 

[BillJ]

I wonder how much the results are skewed by people's dislike of Voyager?

A strong possibility I would assume

It's not so much a dislike of VOY that clouds my thoughts on this, but more it was a non-issue from the beginning so why waste screen time on it, just because they have a holographic character.

After multiple years they probably ran out storylines for a popular character. Hence the nonsense.

 

[sbk1234]

I wonder how much the results are skewed by people's dislike of Voyager?

If this matters, I for one, liked Voyager. I just hated this idea, and never liked the idea of a holographic character at all. So my negative response to "Holographic Rights" has nothing to do with my feelings about the show overall.

 

[BillJ]

I wonder how much the results are skewed by people's dislike of Voyager?

If this matters, I for one, liked Voyager. I just hated this idea, and never liked the idea of a holographic character at all. So my negative response to "Holographic Rights" has nothing to do with my feelings about the show overall.

I like TNG and am lukewarm on Voyager. But it didn't sway my judgement either... Data is a toaster and the Doctor is a holographic toaster.

But I'm sure some folks votes were swayed by their dislike of the series.

 

[Saito S]

Damn Saito, I wish you had joined last nights discussion on Data's sentience in the TNG thread. This is a fantastic addition to that debate.

Thanks! I didn't even notice that thread before cause I haven't poked into the series-specific subforums much lately... Might post in there if it strikes my fancy, we'll see.

I think there is something rather paradoxical about the Doc as a character being one of the best things about a mostly mediocre show, yet this aspect that could only be explored through that character (the issue of "holographic sentience/rights", which should have been characterized as "AI sentience/rights") was pretty badly mangled. It's an interesting concept, and certainly, if we accept the premise that - however it happened - the Doc IS a sentient being capable of feeling real emotion, then he would absolutely deserve the rights associated with sentient organics. But then they undercut the whole thing with nonsense like the "can he be backed up or can't he?" issue, the bit in "Equinox" where they made him into Doc Evil by literally pushing a few buttons, etc. So the issue becomes extremely murky.

Additionally, while I actually kind of enjoyed the ep itself for some reason, "Author, Author" had some really dumb aspects to it, not the least of which was the fact that the original version of Photons be Free was a ridiculous farce. Ok, so he wanted to show, in exaggerated fashion, the burdens he suffers as a hologram. How in the name of Celestia does the captain randomly killing her own crewmen have anything to do with holographic rights? It felt like a Mirror Universe episode, not an examination of the limitations of being a hologram. It was so over the top in so many ways that it just seemed silly.

 

[T'Girl]

the bit in "Equinox" where they made him into Doc Evil by literally pushing a few buttons

That little moment really puts a lie that "The Doctor" is a person with a consciousness, and not just a elaborate computer program. Janeway can sit in her office with a mug of coffee and casually edit his memories.

 

[R. Star]

the bit in "Equinox" where they made him into Doc Evil by literally pushing a few buttons

That little moment really puts a lie that "The Doctor" is a person with a consciousness, and not just a elaborate computer program. Janeway can sit in her office with a mug of coffee and casually edit his memories.

She did that one episode. Forgot the title but the one where he saves Kim over Ensign Deadgirl which caused him to go crazy because he played favorites when he only had time to save one.

 

[F. King Daniel]

the bit in "Equinox" where they made him into Doc Evil by literally pushing a few buttons

That little moment really puts a lie that "The Doctor" is a person with a consciousness, and not just a elaborate computer program. Janeway can sit in her office with a mug of coffee and casually edit his memories.

Nonsense. A good telepath, or anyone with access to the right technology or brainwashing techniques can do exactly the same to an organic being. See: Tom Paris, Tuvok, Miles O'Brien, Geordi LaForge and that time Spock wiped Kirk's mind of Miramanee.

 

[Timo]

that time Spock wiped Kirk's mind of Miramanee

Spock wiped Kirk's mind (or at least softened his memories) in "Requiem for Methuselah", not "Paradise Syndrome"... Whether he erased/softened memories of Rayna the Android or Flint the Immortal, remains debatable.

Anyway, reprogramming a human brain is certainly as feasible as reprogramming a hologram's. Doesn't mean the two would represent identical types of lifeform or consciousness. But the Federation wouldn't get very far if it only gave human rights to creatures identical to humans.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

My view is this: Anyone who accuses characters like Data, the Doctor and Vic Fontaine of not actually having emotions and sentience, but only being programmed to simulate them, should be asked to conclusively prove that human beings don't do the same thing. You can't do that, of course. And thus the whole debate falls flat. You can't prove that WE aren't programmed, so therefore you shouldn't hold holographic life to that standard.

 

[R. Star]

My view is this: Anyone who accuses characters like Data, the Doctor and Vic Fontaine of not actually having emotions and sentience, but only being programmed to simulate them, should be asked to conclusively prove that human beings don't do the same thing. You can't do that, of course. And thus the whole debate falls flat. You can't prove that WE aren't programmed, so therefore you shouldn't hold holographic life to that standard.

But Data and the Doctor -were- programed to simulate emotions. There's no doubt that ability was created as part of an elaborate program.

Are you saying that humans are programed to do this in the womb or something?

 

[JarodRussell]

Are you saying that humans are programed to do this in the womb or something?

Uhm, err... uhm. Well, yes. Basically.


It might be very disappointing to some, but humans, any living being, follows a program. We are programmed to learn and imitate, and have a basic set of hardcoded skills and instincts. Emotions for example are just common patterns basically encoded in our genetic structure. They are the result of our body chemistry, which is the result of the "code" in our genes. They follow a basic cause-reaction (of if-then-else, if you will) structure, with base causes and reactions being hardcoded, and more elaborated causes and reactions being learned.
Intelligence, problem solving and creativity is just a the result of combining things you learned to form new things. You cannot create something completely out of the blue, out of nothing. It will always be a combination of things you already learned.

None of what humans can do is impossible to achieve by a sophisticated program. Currently we lack the understanding of how certain things really work, and we lack the processing power in some areas. One example is visual pattern and object recognition. Very hard to recreate for machines, very "easy" for the human brain. But we will be able to reproduce it sooner or later.

 

[timmy84]

I voted no, but the reason is simple and mentioned already. All the holograms we have seen are tools to serve a purpose.

Now if someone programmed a hologram to be a sentient person, then that would be acceptable, but we haven't seen this. Even the three examples of sentient holograms (the Doctor, Vic Fontaine, Moriarty) were tools created for a purpose. The Doctor is a doctor (and from what we have seen, thats all he ever will be), Vic was programmed to be someone you could talk to about real life issues in a interesting setting, and Moriarty was programmed to out think Data.

The Doctor, our only example of a "sentient" hologram, is also a simulation of an existing person. As we have seen on DS9 and Voyager, Dr. Zimmermen is a jerk, just like the Doctor. The only difference between the two really is Dr. Zimmermen is a doctor of computer sciences while the Doctor is a medical doctor.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The Doctor, our only example of a "sentient" hologram, is also a simulation of an existing person. As we have seen on DS9 and Voyager, Dr. Zimmermen is a jerk, just like the Doctor. The only difference between the two really is Dr. Zimmermen is a doctor of computer sciences while the Doctor is a medical doctor.

I always wondered about that episode... if you're creating a medical hologram to treat patients, it would make sense to program it with a pleasant bedside manner.

So why program it to be obnoxious or overbearing? I saw that this was common theme with holograms during Voyager.

Holograms were now automatically pre-programmed to be super emotional, demanding or neurotic.

The interesting thing with Data is that in the 1st season, he seemed to be more whimsical (smiling, attempting to joke) as if to suggest he had emotions but just couldn't understand humans.

In Measure of a Man, they never brought up the issue of Data having no emotions as a reason why he wasn't sentient, only that he was simply a machine.

Then later in the 3rd season he smiled less, and acted a little more stoic and android like, to express the point he did not have emotions.

 

[BillJ]

One of the biggest mistakes Voyager made. Picardo was such a talented actor he didn't need the holographic "hook" to begin with. It is the first thing I'd fix if I was remaking the show.

 

[timmy84]

One of the biggest mistakes Voyager made. Picardo was such a talented actor he didn't need the holographic "hook" to begin with. It is the first thing I'd fix if I was remaking the show.

I do agree with this, but I think he did a great job with it and is one of the reasons why I even found that plot to be interesting.