Holographic Rights?

[JarodRussell]

So is it the program complexity that determines sentience?

Absolutely. There are many definitions for sentience, but it basically comes down to self-awareness and feelings. Plus intelligence, the ability to learn, connect and reproduce information. The more complex an AI program, the higher the probability that it's sentient.

And it absolutely doesn't matter if the sentient AI is represented by a humanoid hologram, or by a simple text printout.

 

[Use of Time]

Man I bet legislating this stuff would be an absolute nightmare for the Federation.

 

[The Lensman]

Holograms are just an output device. Computer screen, beamer, or hologram.

The program behind it is the important part. The EMH from Voyager could as well just be a text console and a couple of robotic arms. The AI behind it is independent from that.

Again, the hologram is just a representation, guys.

Exactly. The hard light construct does not exist independent of the machinery in the wall. That's why it was ridiculous to say "holographic rights" instead of "machine rights".

As far as the mine workers go, there was no need for them to use the EMH programs. They could've installed a basic holographic system and said "create a lot of people" and then simply fed instructions for what they were to do.

It was a lame sympathy ploy that didn't work. The AI was in the machinery creating the holograms. It could've created as many as needed, whenever it needed them. But people aren't going to feel sympathy for a computer bank.

 

[Timo]

there was no need for them to use the EMH programs.

Were any EMH programs used? The claim by the Doctor comes out of the blue, with no evidence to back it up. And although we see some EMH-shaped things mining at the conclusion of the episode, we have just spent about 50% of the screentime looking at things that aren't real but figments of the Doctor's imagination... Indeed, the lead-in to the scene showing the "miners" involved the Doctor going off to revise his holo-novel.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JarodRussell]

there was no need for them to use the EMH programs.

Were any EMH programs used? The claim by the Doctor comes out of the blue, with no evidence to back it up. And although we see some EMH-shaped things mining at the conclusion of the episode, we have just spent about 50% of the screentime looking at things that aren't real but figments of the Doctor's imagination... Indeed, the lead-in to the scene showing the "miners" involved the Doctor going off to revise his holo-novel.

Timo Saloniemi

As the writers kept mixing up hologram with program, yeah, they intended to say that the sentient EMH programs were used as slaves.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ To be fair, there's no indication that any of those "mining EMH" programs were sentient.

The one we know as The Doctor is. But he is a special case.

 

[sbk1234]

No Silicon Heaven? Where would all the calculators go?

 

[Saito S]

I agree that the main stumbling block to really even having a meaningful discussion about this is the severe mishandling of this issue IN the shows. From the constant mislabeling of the issue as "holographic rights"/"holographic sentience" (which should have been framed as a question of the rights/sentience of the programs BEHIND them, not the actual holograms... and no, I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say "that's probably what they meant, they just chose the wrong words", because Trek - Voyager in particular - made this same mistake in relation to many other issues concerning holographic characters. See: the issue of backing up the EMH), to the inconsistency of how one case was handled vs. the next (all this fuss over the Doc, who was never intended to become sentient or self-aware but somehow did by accident... and yet this whole issue never even came up with regard to Vic Fontaine, who was apparently self-aware by design), to the lack of exploration of the root cause (as mentioned, with the Doc, it just... happened. Also apparently with Moriarty. So... it was an accident? So they couldn't make another one like this on purpose if they wanted to? Or could they? What about Vic? etc)... it's an interesting idea, but it's a mess.

That said, when I parse it out as best I can, I can't help but feel that the individual known on Voyager as The Doc is a sentient being, deserving of the same rights that any organic sentient would get. But beyond that, it's incredibly muddy.

No.

Voyager should have stayed away from the issue. But then I would've rules against Data in The Measure of a Man, even though I like the character immensely.

This is sorta off-topic, but I wanted to comment on it.

Neither Starfleet nor Maddox have any legal standing whatsoever to compel Data to submit to the procedure, whether or not he is a sentient being. This is the biggest flaw in what is otherwise a good episode. By allowing him to join, not to mention promoting him and giving him medals, they explicitly gave their consent for him to resign, the same as any other officer could. There is no ambiguity there. Furthermore, for Maddox to have opposed Data's entry, then claim he cannot resign, is a contradictory stance that clearly shows his bias; this bias should have been addressed far more than it was. Lastly, the implication of ruling against Data is that Starfleet considered him their property from the moment he was activated. What if he had chosen NOT to join Starfleet? Would they still have a right to compel him to submit to... anything, really? Obviously not, which shoots a giant hole in the entire concept.

 

[Timo]

^ To be fair, there's no indication that any of those "mining EMH" programs were sentient.

The final scene, showing two of them discussing Photons Be Free, pretty strongly indicates sapience. But the thing is, I don't see why we should think that this scene was real, not with so much of the episode being Doctor-written, meticuously visualized fiction.

By allowing him to join, not to mention promoting him and giving him medals, they explicitly gave their consent for him to resign, the same as any other officer could. There is no ambiguity there.

Quite so - but the point seems to be that evidence was later uncovered to nullify these earlier actions; to wit, Data was found to have been Starfleet property at the time, and thus ineligible to the above things, and the consent was misguided and inapplicable. Had this fateful ruling been upheld, even a verdict of Data having the right to refuse Maddox' procedure would have left the android high and dry...

Furthermore, for Maddox to have opposed Data's entry, then claim he cannot resign, is a contradictory stance that clearly shows his bias; this bias should have been addressed far more than it was.

A more protracted proceeding would no doubt have addressed this. However, Maddox didn't really put weight on the argument "can't resign" - that was just a brief and unfortunate wording of the general sentiment "must obey", which Maddox very consistently pursued. Since the court was already in favor of the "is property" interpretation, it would have been rather fruitless to attack the case from the Maddox angle as that would have meant attacking Louvois as well.

Lastly, the implication of ruling against Data is that Starfleet considered him their property from the moment he was activated.

How so? Louvois never expressed such a finding or interpretation.

The points expressed were these:

1) Maddox considered Data an officer who had to obey orders, including having to submit to his experiments.

2) When Data threatened to resign, Maddox switched to considering Data a machine, in the hopes of having him declared property and thus forced to undergo the experiments.

3) Louvois did not address the issue of machine-or-not but found Data to be property according to precedent.

4) Riker demonstrated that Data indeed was a machine, which in his opinion would support the Maddox/Louvois viewpoint (although this was just his interpretation, not really confirmed).

5) Picard insisted that Data was sentient, from which it apparently would follow that he would be "entitled to all the rights reserved for all lifeforms" in the UFP - a curious wording that may mean Data would enjoy the same rights as a cat or a daffodil, which would hardly protect him from Maddox' experimentation.

6) Goaded by Guinan, Picard then insisted that unless the court decided in favor of Data's self-determination rights (despite the incomplete evidence), it would fail to err on the side of caution, so to speak, and slavery would be the ultimate result.

7) At this point, Louvois defused the situation by refusing to address any of the big issues. She agreed that Data was a machine, but assigned no relevance to the fact. She withdrew the ruling that Data was property. And she affirmed Data's freedom to choose (although we never learned what the minutiae would ultimately read, and whether Data now enjoys the freedom to choose anything and everything or just whether to undergo Maddox' procedures).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JarodRussell]

^ To be fair, there's no indication that any of those "mining EMH" programs were sentient.

The one we know as The Doctor is. But he is a special case.

I don't think so. The Doctor was sentient and had a big ego from the first moment they activated him. That's one of my problems with that character actually.

 

[Timo]

The ability to pass the Turing test need not be a particularly good indication of sentience or sapience, not in light of current advances in simulation technology. The EMH pretending to be a gruffy, arrogant but efficient doctor may be a fairly uninvolving bit of programming, a mere theatrical routine that does not indicate great interactivity or the presence of a true personality. Many a holographic character has been witnessed with similar qualities of seeming wit and attitude, and never credited with sentience or sapience.

If the 24th century had really come up with a working definition of sentience, this would probably have been brought up in the trial of "The Measure of a Man". Instead, when Data's sentience is argued there, the expert Maddox offers a stumbling and halting definition that ultimately backfires against his intent of excluding Data from the category. With holograms such old news in TNG (young Kate Janeway already grew up with Flotter), their varying levels of sentience must be well recognized, yet their legal and philosophical implications are ill understood. This is quite understandable if sentience still cannot be quantified as of the 2370s. Indeed, the UFP may stubbornly refuse to quantify the wildly varying levels of sentience in the AI community because it understands the implications on the subtler variety of sentience levels in biological UFP member species.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saito S]

By allowing him to join, not to mention promoting him and giving him medals, they explicitly gave their consent for him to resign, the same as any other officer could. There is no ambiguity there.

Quite so - but the point seems to be that evidence was later uncovered to nullify these earlier actions; to wit, Data was found to have been Starfleet property at the time, and thus ineligible to the above things, and the consent was misguided and inapplicable. Had this fateful ruling been upheld, even a verdict of Data having the right to refuse Maddox' procedure would have left the android high and dry...

But the episode never tells us what it is. The episode never shows us any "new evidence". Louvois comes back and says that based on reviewing some act of such-and-such from last century or something, Data is property. They didn't tell us WHAT it was, only that there was supposedly some binding precedent. If they expect us to buy that Louvois found precedent in already existing case law that an entity that joins Starfleet willingly, and even has to overcome opposition to do so, becomes Starfleet's property, than they should have told us what this supposed precedent WAS, because in a vacuum, that's an idiotic concept.

Furthermore, for Maddox to have opposed Data's entry, then claim he cannot resign, is a contradictory stance that clearly shows his bias; this bias should have been addressed far more than it was.

A more protracted proceeding would no doubt have addressed this. However, Maddox didn't really put weight on the argument "can't resign" - that was just a brief and unfortunate wording of the general sentiment "must obey", which Maddox very consistently pursued. Since the court was already in favor of the "is property" interpretation, it would have been rather fruitless to attack the case from the Maddox angle as that would have meant attacking Louvois as well.

Which would have been perfectly fine, given the gross incompetence she displayed when giving weight to the "Starfleet wouldn't allow a computer to refuse a refit, therefore, we shouldn't allow Data to refuse this procedure" argument. In fact, that was the key element that swayed her to allow the situation to escalate (until Maddox said that, she was basically on Picard's side during the scene), which is pretty nuts considering that it's a ridiculously flawed analogy. Data submitting to this procedure and a Starfleet computer undergoing a refit aren't remotely comparable beyond "they are both machines."

Lastly, the implication of ruling against Data is that Starfleet considered him their property from the moment he was activated.

How so? Louvois never expressed such a finding or interpretation.

She didn't have to. It's inherent to the finding she DID make.

Starfleet didn't coerce Data to join. They didn't even ask him to. It was entirely his idea, and Starfleet felt the need to form a special panel to determine if they were going to LET HIM IN or not.

Ergo, if Data hadn't come up with the idea to join, he wouldn't be in Starfleet. If he hadn't pursued a commission, he wouldn't be in the position he is in during the ep at all. Starfleet's only basis for determining him to be property is "he joined - and had to fight his way in to some degree, by the way - therefore, we own him." Which is utter nonsense. His decision to join cannot be construed as an agreement to become Starfleet's property. The only other possibility is, as I said in my other post, that they somehow considered him to be their property from the get-go and would have asserted so whether or not he joined Starfleet. Which is also nonsense.

The points expressed were these:
(big numbered list)

Those are all, in fact, things that happened during the episode, yes. None of them change the fact that the fundamental premise was complete bollocks.

Also, to your point #1 from the list ("Maddox considered Data an officer who had to obey orders, including having to submit to his experiments."), this itself was nonsense. Data should never have been forced to even MAKE the choice between submitting to the procedure and resigning (let alone told he couldn't resign)... unless Starfleet could order an organic officer to submit to a dangerous, potentially life-threatening procedure for the sole purpose of medical research. Since I very much doubt they can do so, for Maddox or either of the two Admirals seen in the ep to order Data to submit would basically be an illegal and invalid order.

 

[Use of Time]

Damn Saito, I wish you had joined last nights discussion on Data's sentience in the TNG thread. This is a fantastic addition to that debate.

 

[Nightdiamond]

On Voyager it all seemed forced. I didn't come out of it with a concern for their rights the way I did with Data.

Maybe because at this point hologram's behaviors are so over the top that it became cliche.

Even the EMH on the Prometheus seemed unusually obnoxious for no reason other than to give it an exotic personality.

This is the question--if a hologram can feel emotions, no matter how simple their programming is, then I'd seriously consider that they should have rights.

Otherwise the assumption is that they're only designed to show emotional responses and it is all simulated. They don't feel emotions, they just display it in a reprogrammed pattern.

And the problem is that the writing showed holograms- (like miners programmed to mine) who should show little to no emotions , expressing huge amounts of emotion and self awareness.

 

[ngc7293]

There are energy beings in the trek universe that are sentient.
There are machines in the trek universe that are sentient

A Sentient Hologram meets both of those so I say why not? Just because people don't like the way the Voyager writers did it doesn't mean it can't happen.

Just a question at Bry, is Data a tool or is he a sentient being (certain episodes not withstanding). You probably answered the question a million times, but I wasn't there

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Just a question at Bry, is Data a tool or is he a sentient being (certain episodes not withstanding). You probably answered the question a million times, but I wasn't there

A lot of Data's capabilities make him useful in certain situations, which could see him being used more as a tool, but in my mind, his uniqueness makes him a special case which deserves consideration (kinda like an endangered species ).

As for those that say about some holograms getting rights, that doesn't seem fair does it? Just because they weren't programmed with a couple of algorithms that give them the appearance of sentience they should be treated as second-class projections.

Where is the line between equal rights for all holograms and discrimination? That was one thing I had serious issues with, not every hologram would be complex enough to understand their rights, let alone exercise them, but you can't leave them out just because they weren't programmed that way, insert a line of two of code and that would change.

 

[Timo]

But the episode never tells us what it is.

I don't think it needs to. We know what sort of atmosphere Data lives and serves in: Picard was the first one to take Data seriously as a person working for Starfleet, the first one to allow him to interact with people to the degree that the worst edges of his social clumsiness slowly began to wear off. Prior to this, we could easily see Starfleet dancing around the issue of "Well, he's really just a toaster, but dressing him up is what he himself wanted and it looks darn good. For us, that is. Great PR. The machine itself of course looks just silly clothed."

Thinking computers are not a new thing in the Trek universe when Data comes along. Nor are androids. Combining the two may be new, though, or then Soong resurrected an outmoded concept for the purposes of showcasing his new positronics. But all Star Trek precedent of AIs and androids shows them to be reprehensible things, hell-bent on destroying humanity. It only appears logical that Starfleet regulations and civil law would be full of assurances that a machine can be denied the right to exist or at least the right to act, as a default position rather than as something the biological representatives of the UFP would have to file complex forms for.

Which would have been perfectly fine, given the gross incompetence she displayed when giving weight to the "Starfleet wouldn't allow a computer to refuse a refit, therefore, we shouldn't allow Data to refuse this procedure" argument.

That was the zeitgeist, though. Data was a Starfleet computer, apparently kept in some corner doing calculations until Picard decided to "out" him (and Worf, and other exotic showpieces like that). For Louvois to challenge that status quo, she'd need an incentive rather than a challenge to her competence.

Fighting for Data and fighting against Louvois were two almost mutually exclusive things for Picard. The Captain wasn't facing a neutral court but a racist and hostile one, from his viewpoint at least. And he couldn't deny that Data indeed was a machine and had been utilized as such. With a court starting from the assumption that Data's previous achievements in the field of humanity had been illegal and void, Picard would need to gain sympathies rather than enemies.

She didn't have to. It's inherent to the finding she DID make.

As we don't know the content of the Acts of Cumberland, we can't make this claim. Louvois is very specific that Data is Starfleet property - we can't twist that into Data being generic property just because we would feel it sounds better.

His decision to join cannot be construed as an agreement to become Starfleet's property.

No need to. It just happens to coincide with the thing. "Glad you joined, but alas, for a machine to be on our payroll means you are property in the sense of AoC §47, despite you also remaining a person on our payroll in the sense of SFGR §3.14159. And AoC outweighs SFGR for the purposes of this submitting-to-experiments argument." Laws protecting an individual are fine and well, but if the very individuality is challenged, it's certainly and naturally an uphill battle to regain any protection. Criminals forfeit some of their rights through their criminal acts; machines in Star Trek could certainly forfeit theirs simply by demonstrating "machineness".

unless Starfleet could order an organic officer to submit to a dangerous, potentially life-threatening procedure for the sole purpose of medical research.

Starfleet can definitely order people to march to certain death, so this isn't a major leap at all.

Where is the line between equal rights for all holograms and discrimination?

Equal rights are discrimination. Always. Only a universe of clones could make do with equal rights to everybody, without creating inequality through those very rights.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[R. Star]

Am I a horrible person for being a terrible player of Super Mario Brothers?

I wonder how many Mario's we've sent off to death for our own amusement? Trillions?

That's right! For far too long have video game characters been subjugated and mass slaughtered by their gamer slavemasters!

Video game character equality! They're safe aware, can interact with their enviroment and have the capacity to learn and act. They must be given equal rights to all humanity and all gamers should be punished for the explotation of this sentient life!

 

[Timo]

...If anything, holograms like the EMH would require a set of severe limitations to their rights to enjoy mere equal status, as they naturally enjoy so many advantages over us poor humanoids. They are invulnerable, immortal, and capable of adjusting the pace of life, their physical form and psyche at will. Their ability to reproduce (or un-reproduce, or merge, or do other weird things) is superior as well, but pales in comparison with their general capacity to choose the number and nature of manifestations.

For example, a hologram would have fairly little use for "the right not to be wantonly killed", as killing would be but a minor and temporary inconvenience. On the other hand, a hologram might be very interested in "the right to decide whether tomorrow comes after today or before"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saito S]

I had begun to write up a bigger post, but I don't want to throw in another text wall, and I think we're at loggerheads here. Just a few things then:

But the episode never tells us what it is.

I don't think it needs to. We know what sort of atmosphere Data lives and serves in: Picard was the first one to take Data seriously as a person working for Starfleet, the first one to allow him to interact with people to the degree that the worst edges of his social clumsiness slowly began to wear off. Prior to this, we could easily see Starfleet dancing around the issue of "Well, he's really just a toaster, but dressing him up is what he himself wanted and it looks darn good. For us, that is. Great PR. The machine itself of course looks just silly clothed."

Unless I am just forgetting some telling dialog, this all sounds like your personal theory to me. I don't remember this kind of pre Ent-D background ever being even hinted at - let alone established - on the show. And without such solid evidence, I don't buy it. They promoted him to Lieutenant Commander (before the show even started), which isn't a PR move because it has real, serious consequences: he can order around a larger number of officers than can order him around at any given posting. They also gave him medals for valor. These actions are hardly suggestive of a dismissive, "we're not taking him seriously" attitude.
Re: Louvois, I didn't actually mean to suggest that Picard SHOULD have challenged her in the ep (and I admit I didn't make this clear). By "fine" I meant I personally would have been fine with it, because she should never have listened to that insanely inapplicable analogy.

As we don't know the content of the Acts of Cumberland, we can't make this claim. Louvois is very specific that Data is Starfleet property - we can't twist that into Data being generic property just because we would feel it sounds better.

No, I didn't mean generic property. I meant that for Starfleet to claim that Data is Starfleet property because Data joined, means they are claiming he would be Starfleet property - specifically - if he hadn't joined, because it was HIS idea to join, and they even resisted at first. Ergo, even if he hadn't joined, they would view him as theirs to do with as they please.

Either that, or their only claim to property is the fact that he joined.

My overall point here is that both of those ideas are ludicrous.

unless Starfleet could order an organic officer to submit to a dangerous, potentially life-threatening procedure for the sole purpose of medical research.

Starfleet can definitely order people to march to certain death, so this isn't a major leap at all.

To save the lives of others in immediate danger. To solve an immediate problem. Not for research.

I'm just not buying any of it. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.