Hirogens vs Jem'Hadar

[lurok]

Probably my favorite new late-Trek antagonists (I'm counting Cardassians as classic/TNG). Do others think they were successful or added anything? If not, why? Underused or overused? Best or worst episodes. And most important of all, who'd win in a fight

Best/Worst Hirogen: Prey/Killing Game
Best/Worst Jem'Hadar: To The Death and Rocks & Shoals/The Abandoned

 

[The Wormhole]

The Jem'Hadar were awesome, and the Hirogen are also pretty cool. I agree the best Jem'Hadar episodes are Toe the Death and Rocks and Shoals. The best Hirogen episode is The Killing Game, although Prey gets honourable mention since Tony Todd's Hirogen is so cool.

If you're interested in a fight between the Jem'Hadar and the Hirogen, I'd recommend the novel Demons of Air and Darkness. Word of warning, that link has spoilers.

 

[TheLobes]

Hirogen/Jem Hadar
Kazon/Klingon
Coffee. Black/ Tea. Earl Grey. Hot

Voyager stole the hell out of everything. They didnt really add anything to Voyager, just became the monster of the week.

Best/Worst Jem: To the Death/ This Little Ship
Best/Worst Hirogen: The Killing Game/ Tsunkatse. Although thats probably more to do with the strength of the episodes than how the Hirogen acted.

Id say the Jem would probably win in a fight, not really sure why though.

 

[Anwar]

Hirogen/Jem Hadar
Kazon/Klingon
Coffee. Black/ Tea. Earl Grey. Hot

Voyager stole the hell out of everything.

You make it seem like DS9 was original with the Jem'Hadar.

Anyways, the Hirogen had armor strong enough to let them walk on Suns. I think they take the Jem'Hadar.

And given how constrained the show's premise was, there wasn't anything they could do with their enemies that WOULDN'T make them monsters of the week or add to the show in a meaningful way. So there's no point in complaining over that. It's pretty much impossible to tell an epic story with a plot like Voyager.

 

[Cyke101]

Hirogen/Jem Hadar
Kazon/Klingon
Coffee. Black/ Tea. Earl Grey. Hot

Voyager stole the hell out of everything.

And given how constrained the show's premise was, there wasn't anything they could do with their enemies that WOULDN'T make them monsters of the week or add to the show in a meaningful way. So there's no point in complaining over that. It's pretty much impossible to tell an epic story with a plot like Voyager.

When we first saw the Hirogen over the viewscreen and Seven zapped him and the end of the episode strongly hinted that this menace was coming back to even the score, I honestly thought Hirogen was going to be a single person. From that point on, I was hoping "Hirogen" would have his own ship and be formidable enough, strong enough, saavy enough, and resourceful enough to be a match for a crew of 150 people.

Going along that route, if Hirogen was a recurring villain, always on the hunt and following Voyager, man, I'm tellin' ya... that would've been epic.

Anyway, I thought the Hirogen were one of Voyager's better concepts and thus better villains. Yes, they're a warrior race and we've seen that before, but we also know that the Klingons nor the Jem'Hadar have a monopoly on the whole galaxy. And they seemed like a great way to "Trekify" the Predator concept, but now with the power of speech and reason, two classic Trek staples in their aliens.

 

[Anwar]

I ran that idea of yours about the Hirogen being one guy to Saito S, he thought it was insane (and not the good way).

Face it, VOY's premise made it impossible to tell a truly epic story. With anything.

 

[M-Red]

The Hirogen wouldn't fare well against the J'H in a full blown war. Assuming the J'H are being directed by the Founders and they have plenty of smack, the Hirogen are too decentralized to a withstand the sort of highly organized and sophisticated assault the J'H would deliver.

However...if it was one ship vs. one ship, I'd take the Hirogen.

And in 1-on-1, hand-to-hand combat....I'd take the Hirogen. An alpha Hirogen can hold his own against 8472 on the ground...bad news for the kind of J'H that Worf used for POW practice.

Face it, VOY's premise made it impossible to tell a truly epic story. With anything.

The more I think about it, the more I agree with this. That's a big enough (and good enough) topic for its own thread...so back to the Hirogen for a sec.

They're not a generic warrior race like other Trek villains -- they're hunters. They're a highly advanced but very decentralized species that doesn't live on or defend a central homeworld like traditional Trek villains. They travel in small autonomous packs (or alone) and devote their entire time to seeking out, studying, and then hunting the most challenging prey. That's different than other Trek villains: Klingons, Rommies, Cardies, Dominion, etc.

The Hirogen might be generically developed or written as individuals, but their culture and broader concept is different from other Trek villains. If anything, they (blatantly) ripped off Predator. Given your point about the problematic premise and the epic-factor, the Hirogen work pretty well imo.

 

[Arpy]

Not true.

1. It would have taken them years to get through Borg space without Kes.
2. They could have done a baddie a year for larger powers or for a few weeks with smaller ones.
3. They could have taken the ramifications of their exploits with them emotionally, changing attitudes and themes.
4. They could have had physical changes as well. The ship could have needed replacement alien parts, characters could have come and gone - they did that with Kes and Seven, and Neelix toward the end.

I think they were mandated to be episodic at all costs and that's what they did. "Let the committed Trek fans watch serial DS9 and the casual ones episodic VOY."

 

[M-Red]

3. They could have taken the ramifications of their exploits with them emotionally, changing attitudes and themes.
4. They could have had physical changes as well. The ship could have needed replacement alien parts, characters could have come and gone - they did that with Kes and Seven, and Neelix toward the end.

Definitely not saying it couldn't be improved, and I completely agree with these two. I mean, c'mon. These two things would have really enriched the series. But...there were some special challenges because of the plot.

VOY's plot required the creators to have a broader series vision (a grand plan -- kinda like what you just listed!) from the very beginning. The more localized plots of TNG and DS9 allowed them to develop regular situations and antagonistic species in a believable way -- to "find themselves" as a series.

From the very first episode, VOY had to keep moving very fast through entirely unknown space....and toward an inevitable goal. Just different.

I think they were mandated to be episodic at all costs and that's what they did. "Let the committed Trek fans watch serial DS9 and the casual ones episodic VOY."

Wouldn't doubt that at all either. TPTB

 

[TheLobes]

Face it, VOY's premise made it impossible to tell a truly epic story. With anything.

I disagree. However, it would have to be about whats going on inside Voyager, not whats going on outside Voyager. I think the big Voyager story should have been about the Maquis and Starfleet. However, the word 'epic' gets thrown about so much now, Id prefer it if you clarified what you meant. It seems like the only 'truly epic' story that trek gave us was the Dominion War, which, after a strong start, ended up sucking.

 

[Cyke101]

I ran that idea of yours about the Hirogen being one guy to Saito S, he thought it was insane (and not the good way).

Admittedly, it's comic booky, but then again comic books are usually a medium where more time can be taken with things. But in my mind, that one Hirogen could have easily been like Lore but with more honor (going by the Hirogen concept) or a tougher, more technologically advanced Roga Donar. The Voyager crew certainly ran into the Hirogen enough times without (I feel) wearing out their welcome, so I imagine that with the right amount of motivation, a recurring, single villain would be given time to develop yet ably come after the crew time and again.

 

[Anwar]

Not true.

1. It would have taken them years to get through Borg space without Kes.

The Borg stink as anything other than a villain that shows up once every few seasons for a single story. They're too overpowered and 1-D to tell a longer-story about.

2. They could have done a baddie a year for larger powers or for a few weeks with smaller ones.

They tried that with the Kazon and the Vidiians, didn't work. And if they HAD gone with the actual season-long "Year of Hell" story then folks would just complain that the Krenim stuck around too long too.

3. They could have taken the ramifications of their exploits with them emotionally, changing attitudes and themes.
4. They could have had physical changes as well. The ship could have needed replacement alien parts, characters could have come and gone - they did that with Kes and Seven, and Neelix toward the end.

Neither of those are "Epic". Like a big storyline that entails the safety and survival of an entire vast region of space containing billions of lives, which would be a big part of the series' plot.

I disagree. However, it would have to be about whats going on inside Voyager, not whats going on outside Voyager. I think the big Voyager story should have been about the Maquis and Starfleet.

There'd be nothing "epic" or grand about the internal story of Voyager, especially since crew internal tensions would end up fading after the first season or so anyways (realistically). It isn't like the Maquis were really developed beforehand as real enemies of the Federation with their own goals and culture. If the other group were Cardassians or Romulans or something like that, then there'd be something.

 

[TheLobes]

Neither of those are "Epic". Like a big storyline that entails the safety and survival of an entire vast region of space containing billions of lives, which would be a big part of the series' plot.

So, is that what you mean by 'epic'?

 

[Anwar]

Yes. Epic, as in "Something much bigger than the characters and their ship", something Galaxy-shaking or at least important to the area they're in.

Like how Farscape ended up being about a huge Galactic War that nearly ended in the Apocalypse for the entire Galaxy and possibly beyond. Or Blake's Seven was about taking down a government that ruled the Galaxy.

Being about one insignificant ship with insignificant people who had no impact on anything or anyone outside of their ship, just isn't enough.

Every other "One ship on its own" show out there had the sense to have there be something special and unique/important about their ship or crew. Voyager didn't bother, which undercut the show's potential.

 

[Cyke101]

Yes. Epic, as in "Something much bigger than the characters and their ship", something Galaxy-shaking or at least important to the area they're in.

It could be argued that Scorpion and Endgame, quality aside, could fit that criteria. On the other hand though, they were merely two parters.

 

[TheLobes]

Yes. Epic, as in "Something much bigger than the characters and their ship", something Galaxy-shaking or at least important to the area they're in.

Like how Farscape ended up being about a huge Galactic War that nearly ended in the Apocalypse for the entire Galaxy and possibly beyond. Or Blake's Seven was about taking down a government that ruled the Galaxy.

Being about one insignificant ship with insignificant people who had no impact on anything or anyone outside of their ship, just isn't enough.

Every other "One ship on its own" show out there had the sense to have there be something special and unique/important about their ship or crew. Voyager didn't bother, which undercut the show's potential.

Ah right, I thought you meant that trek needed to be epic in order to be good.

 

[Arpy]

I don't like the idea that VOY couldn't have been anything if the writers were up to the challenge.

The Hirogen, Q, the Vadwaar, the Caretakers, the Borg...I think they had opportunity to create larger arcs but generally shied away from them.

Epic means larger than life and by that definition, half of Star Trek's single episodes are epic. "The Chase" wasn't epic or "Year of Hell?" The lives of half the galaxy weren't hanging in the balance of most episodes of the other series either.

Epic I think is a quality. I and I think even ship board episodes could have been epic if the writing took the characters to sufficiently epic heights. Heck, what happened to Kes alone when she left the ship was pretty epic. If they allowed characters to actually change, I think the impact of that change on the viewer too could have been epic. But always, the reset button was set on characters just as it was set on the ship being as pristine in the last episode as it was in the first.

That the baddies they did come up with weren't interesting, or written that way, doesn't have to do with the ability of the format. Heck, Moya too was on a long journey looking for its crew's homeworlds.

Moby Dick was epic - what if a continuing storyline was of another ship chasing Voyager through time and space for a perceived or actual wrong? Bialar Crais/Maldis/Scorpious meets Arturis/Captain Ransom/other... Not just a single individual though, more like a crew, an anti-Voyager maybe, or the Voth, or something. Continuing storyline, different type off attack and ramifications every episode...

A baddie that showed up every so often in a new and interesting way. The Borg basically did this, catching up with Voyager every how often even though Voyager was out of core Borg territory. If all you're looking for is trillions of lives at stake, what if the Caretaker's people showing up to cleanse half the galaxy to cover up their shame? Or, wait, the Continuum started to tear apart the fabric of the universe during their civil war.

 

[Anwar]

That the baddies they did come up with weren't interesting, or written that way, doesn't have to do with the ability of the format. Heck, Moya too was on a long journey looking for its crew's homeworlds.

In Farscape, they were pretty much flying around in circles for the entire series and kept running into the same people because the worlds they were searching for weren't far away or lost but rather WITHIN the territory of the series' villains.

Also, most of Moya's crew were all inhabitants of that area of space and thus there was lots of connection to explore. In Voyager the crew were all NOT from there, so there was little to no connection.

Having VOY know where Earth was, and having them always be moving AWAY from the recurring enemies, was a mistake.

Moby Dick was epic - what if a continuing storyline was of another ship chasing Voyager through time and space for a perceived or actual wrong? Bialar Crais/Maldis/Scorpious meets Arturis/Captain Ransom/other... Not just a single individual though, more like a crew, an anti-Voyager maybe, or the Voth, or something. Continuing storyline, different type off attack and ramifications every episode...

They tried that with the Kazon, the Vidiians and the Hirogen. Reactions were ALWAYS "They shouldn't keep running into these people" no matter HOW good the reasons for running into them were.

A baddie that showed up every so often in a new and interesting way. The Borg basically did this, catching up with Voyager every how often even though Voyager was out of core Borg territory. If all you're looking for is trillions of lives at stake, what if the Caretaker's people showing up to cleanse half the galaxy to cover up their shame? Or, wait, the Continuum started to tear apart the fabric of the universe during their civil war.

And when they did the Q and Borg stories, the complaint was "Voyager is too important, it shouldn't be able to have any influence on these events whatsoever."

No matter WHAT is done, there's no appreciation.

 

[TheLobes]

The idea of the federation gaining any kind of victory by 'sending the borg to sleep' in 'The Best of Both Worlds' was pretty stupid, but that didnt matter because the episode itself was so good.

I could have ignored Voyager running into the Kazon, Hirogen or whatever all the time if they had actually been part of a well told story. In the same way, I wouldnt have minded Q being on Voyager if Q actually fit on Voyager. They tried Q on DS9 and quickly realised that it sucked, because he didnt suit a pairing with Sisko, so they stopped having him on that show. Q worked so well on TNG because of the dynamic he had with Picard, but Voyager didnt know how to make an interesting centra character, so they couldnt come up with an 'epic' villain to place Janeway against.

I think the problem is less to do with the concept and more to do with the ill-defined characters.

 

[Anwar]

I could have ignored Voyager running into the Kazon, Hirogen or whatever all the time if they had actually been part of a well told story.

Like I said, their "Always on the move, leaving everyone behind" premise meant that the kind of "Well told story" you want couldn't be done. If they didn't know how to get home and had to stay in one place for most of the series, THEN there's something to work with.

Imagine they spend 2 or so seasons trapped in one region of space inhabited by the Kazon, Vidiians, Krenim and Hirogen with plots tying all of these aliens together and then for the 3rd season they have to fight off an all-out Borg invasion with all of these guys working together until the VOY crew finds the 8472 aliens and convinces them to destroy all the Borg before leaving for their home dimension.

Well, that kind of plot just couldn't be done in Voyager.

Q worked so well on TNG because of the dynamic he had with Picard, but Voyager didnt know how to make an interesting centra character, so they couldnt come up with an 'epic' villain to place Janeway against.

They did come up with some good villains to pit against the crew, but the premise kept them from sticking around.

Farscape had the right idea: Going home should be part of the plot, but they shouldn't know HOW to go home until much later in the show after they've already had a bunch of adventures in the same place.

And the method of going home should make it easy to return to where they left, as well.