hiding in the fog

[varek]

While thinking about peaceful ships, like the Olympic-class hospital ships, I wondered if a less-well-armed ship like that could produce a smoke-screen, to mask its movements, like an octopus.

Would that work in space? How do you think it could be done?

Of course, many ships have used magnetic shielding of planets, to hide. But, I was wondering if they could create a fog or vapor that would conceal their movements.

What do you think?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Space is a vacuum. Would disperse too thin to be useful.

 

[varek]

Wikipedia says that artificial fog is usually created by vaporizing a water and glycol-based or glycine-based fluid. The fluid is injected into a heated block, which evaporates quickly. The resulting pressure forces the vapor out of the exit. Upon coming into contact with cool outside air--or in space, the vacuum--the vapor should condense as a fog-like material. Perhaps it would leave a cloud of ice-crystals in the air, so to speak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog

http://www.smokemachines.net/smoke-chemical-types.shtml

Could something like this be done in space?

 

[mythme]

We've seen ships produce "clouds" of plasma to fake-out enemies. I dunno if that's scientifically accurate either.

 

[varek]

We've seen ships produce "clouds" of plasma to fake-out enemies. I dunno if that's scientifically accurate either.

That sounds like a good idea, too.

 

[Melakon]

Perhaps it would leave a cloud of ice-crystals in the air, so to speak.

I was never good at science, but I don't think there's anything like air in space, since that normally requires an atmosphere.

But why go to all the trouble of creating a cloud large enough to hide a ship? There are comets, asteroid fields and nebula that always seem to be nearby when a ship needs to hide from someone.

 

[BigJake]

Hiding behind fog and smokescreens is the kind of thing that works in atmospheres and when you're on bodies of water. Any attempt to sell it as something you'd bother doing in space would come off as silly for me, personally; it doesn't pay to over-literalize the metaphorical connections between nautical ships and Starfleet ships.

 

[trevanian]

One of my rejected pitches to TNG involved a sequence in which the -d had to sneak up on a Romulan ship, and to do so they basically flushed a ton of water into space around themselves to form a comet, then drifted right in close to the perp, using passive sensors to get the info they needed.

Idea was the suspense level would ratchet up as they went sunward, with the possibility the ice would melt too quickly.

But after the romulans are busted, then the -d triumphantly explodes right out of the faux comet. Still think it would have been a helluva visual, akin to the refit emerging from vger's transcendence.

 

[DonIago]

Well, you've got me remembering the incident where Odo and Weyoun hid a runabout in a bunch of balls of ice.

Seemed to work except for the minor inconvenience of needing to power down little things like life support...

 

[BigJake]

Still think it would have been a helluva visual, akin to the refit emerging from vger's transcendence.

As a space-specific idea, that's pretty cool.

 

[trevanian]

One thing I remember about nearly all of my TNG pitches is that I very specifically only called for a couple new VFX shots in any given story. I wrote with very specific stock shots leading to and following the big new 'moments' that would have to be done fresh. Even ones with space battles were mostly done via graphics ... that way they could put their money toward doing just a couple ambitious shots very well.

That's actually still the way I'd prefer to see more space shows go, feature films too ... less number of shots, but with serious resources behind them to make them look credible AND spectacular.

 

[Shawnster]

Hiding behind fog and smokescreens is the kind of thing that works in atmospheres and when you're on bodies of water. Any attempt to sell it as something you'd bother doing in space would come off as silly for me, personally; it doesn't pay to over-literalize the metaphorical connections between nautical ships and Starfleet ships.

And also smokescreens are only effective against visual detection. Other sensors, such as radar, infrared, etc... can penetrate the smoke and fog.

For some kind of space smoke or space fog to be effective, it would need to block all the sensors.

From a real life point of view, electronic chaff and countermeasures are a form of technological smoke screens intended to confuse sensors.

 

[Cyke101]

The smokescreen idea works in games like Star Trek Online, though yeah, I don't think it'd be very effective otherwise.

I can't help but think, though, that a "smokescreen in space" is akin to trying to evade detection in a blanket inside a clear swimming pool -- they know where you are and can just cover the area with charges and explosions, like how the Borg forced the E-D out of the nebula in Best of Both Worlds.

 

[varek]

However, there are winds and breezes--such as solar (stellar) winds--in space. That is how the Bajoran sail vessel traveled.
So, I would think that some kind of condensation might be dispersed, in the right circumstances. What about the interstellar medium?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_medium
Also, a small vapor-cloud or plasma-cloud of some kind might help mask the trajectory of the vessel if it jumps into warp drive, making it difficult for any pursuers to follow it.
Another idea--What if they equipped noncombatant ships with quantum slipstream drive, so they could escape from dangerous situations?

 

[DonIago]

So far quantum slipstream is a new enough and contentious enough technology that I doubt it's even close to being placed on ships that can't defend themselves.

I'm assuming you've read the books featuring the Typhon Pact, where their efforts to match the advantages that QSD affords the Federation have been a prominent factor.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Seems to me that it would a lot like the time the Joker kidnapped Lois Lane and hid her in the city in a lead coffin, thinking Superman wouldn't be able to find her in time before she suffocated. All Supes did was use his x-ray vision across the city to find places he couldn't see through that were big enough to hold Lois - had her free in seconds.

Put another way, unless there is a pre-existing phenomenon nearby that would cause such fog, this isn't going to be of much use - the enemy isn't going to be all "where did they go, George, where did they go", they're going to figure out that YOU are emitting the strangely placed fog, and the only slight tactical advantage it might provide is the few moments of hesitation while they try to figure out why in the heck you're doing that.

 

[DonIago]

That could be doubly dangerous if the "smokescreen" involved plasma. One photon torpedo exploding against the plasma would be a bad thing.

 

[Cyke101]

Seems to me that it would a lot like the time the Joker kidnapped Lois Lane and hid her in the city in a lead coffin, thinking Superman wouldn't be able to find her in time before she suffocated. All Supes did was use his x-ray vision across the city to find places he couldn't see through that were big enough to hold Lois - had her free in seconds.

Now that I think about it, I think I was actually inspired to make my post from a faint Superman comic childhood memory in the 90s -- some crooks lined their warehouse with lead so that Superman couldn't see through it and find their stash, but really, how many warehouses are built with pure lead? They were caught just as quick.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Yeah, some sort of cloud that emits strong electronic noise would be much more effective than a visual cloud. Like, okay they can see where we are but they can't detect anything that we're doing.

 

[varek]

Yeah, some sort of cloud that emits strong electronic noise would be much more effective than a visual cloud. Like, okay they can see where we are but they can't detect anything that we're doing.

That's not a bad idea.

Also, concerning visual escape, your ship might be able to slip close to a planet's atmosphere, to perhaps utilize its upper layer to help create the smokescreen.