Hey, I never noticed that before....

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Warped9, Aug 1, 2015.

  1. UssGlenn

    UssGlenn Commodore Commodore

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    Yes but we know the Talosians have great range, there is nothing preventing them from pluging Pike into Vinas shared illusion the moment he agrees to go. Where his body is at that moment doesn't matter.
     
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  2. TheAdmiralty

    TheAdmiralty Commander Red Shirt

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    That's why I view it as kind of superfluous now, I'd rather just watch The Cage, the courtroom scenes with Spock just don't add much. It feels like a clip show.

    At the time they were probably just trying to find a use for all the footage of The Cage that cost a lot of money to produce and it was a story that Gene obviously liked a lot.
     
  3. ssosmcin

    ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It also gave them a whole additional episode's worth of already paid for footage which helped the budget immensely.

    Watching it on home video may seem a little awkward with the breaks in the narrative flow of the pilot story, but when seen on TV as it aired with commercials, which meant needing climaxes, it's fine.
     
  4. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    And it helped them stay on shooting schedule. They were falling behind and were sometimes in danger of not being able to deliver an episode on time for air. Use of The Cage footage in The Menagerie gave them another week's worth of filming time to bank.
     
  5. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    It doesn't hurt that the Cage was a pretty cool episode, to begin with, more than average for TOS.
     
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  6. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    In my view, "The Menagerie" is the official, original broadcast version of "The Cage". The restored standalone version of "The Cage" is a home video extra. Doing a watch-through, I'll just watch "The Menagerie" when it comes up.
     
  7. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    Aren't the two almost identical? What are the differences?
     
  8. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    The differences are not great enough to watch the same material twice in such close succession.

    I think that "The Menagerie" has gotten a bad rap since "The Cage" became available on its own. What they did with "The Menagerie" was quite clever...they took an early pilot with a mostly different cast and turned it into a meaty piece of early world-building.
     
  9. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That is the problem. You have to make an individual decision as to what you like more: the uncut pilot or the injured Pike framing story. I can't entirely part with either one, but most often I would choose "The Menagerie" despite its flaws, because:
    • The first shot of Pike in that chair is as stunning and eerie as anything The Twilight Zone ever did.
    • I grew up with "The Menagerie," and I like staying connected to my past.
    • You really do get most of "The Cage" anyway.
     
  10. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    And something that people have come to take for granted about the "The Menagerie" is that it gives the original pilot a context to fit within the continuity of the larger series. Watching "The Cage" alone, without "The Menagerie," you don't get that.
     
  11. Disposable_Ensign

    Disposable_Ensign Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    What's the explanation as to how they acquired the footage of the incident on Talos IV.
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Who did?

    Talosians don't need no stinking footage. They recreated the Rigel incident out of the mind of Pike, but apparently projected it to the mind of Vina as well (assuming, that is, that Vina was real in the first place). They could again siphon the story off Pike to show it to the rest of the circus here.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. Disposable_Ensign

    Disposable_Ensign Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Sorry, now that I think back on it, it was Spock who presented that, not Kirk. Its been a while since I saw it, and I had forgotten.
     
  14. Boris Skrbic

    Boris Skrbic Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Pike likes to daydream about flying with the Enterprise at (time) warp, then peering into the bridge through the dome?
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Talosians are masters of the third person POV in all of their illusions... We never see anything through Pike's eyes, at any rate.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. Boris Skrbic

    Boris Skrbic Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Would they be based only on Pike’s memories, though, as opposed to memories of everyone they had access to in 2254 for a more complete and accurate picture?
     
  17. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...And who is seeing them? Is the very sight of these folks sitting in this room watching this footage an illusion for our benefit, or are there only two pieces of illusion there - the material on the viewscreen, and the Mendez-like apparition on one of the chairs?

    Most of a typical Trek adventure goes unseen by the heroes, and only exists visually for the benefit of the audience. Perhaps much of what is on that viewscreen also goes unseen by the heroes, who in any case are in some sort of Talosian stupor and not firing on all thrusters.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  18. ssosmcin

    ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The funny thing is that much of the stuff cut from the unaired pilot was mostly, well, pretty awkward and cringey.
    1. The version of the Star Trek theme is very "game show."
    2. Pike's comment about not being used to a woman on the bridge and Number One wasn't even the only woman even without Colt there.
    3. The really loud Star Trek theme playing over the hyperdrive sequence, so loud that Tyler has to resort to using hand signals to tell Pike they reached time warp factor seven.
    4. The "who would've been Eve" was awful and well sliced.

    The two scenes on the Enterprise late in the story are actually pretty great, but I can see why they cut them (other than for time). Spock comes off panicky and lacking the "extreme loyalty to his captain" that Miss Piper mentioned in part one of The Menagerie. The scene of the computers being ransacked, though, was chilling and a sad cut.

    While I always loved having the "complete" unaired pilot, The Menagerie two parter is what I grew up with and it's just fine being seen that way, at least for me
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  19. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Commodore Captain

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    Oh yeah! That one was really stupid!!
     
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  20. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think most of the "footage" is for our benefit, and what Kirk and Spock and Pike (and "Mendez") see is not what we see, in its entirety. They might see more, they might see less, but it's like in a movie where a guy starts narrating about something, and his voice fades away and we watch the story. We don't have to imagine questions about Talosian cinematography, because most of the cinematography isn't happening, and the likely "real thing" is probably much more static and fixed.
     
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