Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDANCE!

[Enterpriserules]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

DS9 did a lot for religion in Star Trek and for that I am grateful. It showed how, as has been said, things like the Prophets are not mutually exclusive to one or the other in terms of what they are. Kira was also a wonderful representative of a devout believer who displays her faith though her actions, she's a good witness to it, not a street-corner preacher. It was nice to see that not everything can be sufficiently explained by science and many never do so and that faith is not something for the irrational or stupid. Faith can be held by quite logical and learned people like Kira, Sisko or Worf.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

I had a discussion about religion and religious characters in Trek with a friend of mine who is Jewish Orthodox...he was actually disheartened by some of the new borderline token characters, as he always felt that the federation era earth had moved beyond overt displays of relgious belief towards something more personal to the individuals. I am inclined to agree with him to an extent.

I don't see characters like David Gold or Cemal Iskender from Aftermath as tokens -- more as acknowledgments that diversity still exists. There will always be many different ways that people experience and express religion, and some will be more conventional than others.

Then there's Jasminder Choudhury, whom I portrayed as someone with a very eclectic approach to religion, open to teachings from many faiths as contributions to her own personal worldview.

However, I do suspect things like burkhas, hijabs, large uniform adjustments....possibly even full turbans for sikh characters would indeed feel out of place on the bridge.

Hijab is really more a cultural practice than a religious one. The Qur'an really only specifies covering the hair and torso; the practice of veiling actually may have originated in the Byzantine Empire. And Islam is a very pragmatic religion; except in the most fundamentalist variants, it doesn't demand any more than is practical from the worshipper. Make the pilgrimage to Mecca if you can, but it's okay if you can't. Pray five times a day if it's feasible, but otherwise just do what you can. And so on. And there are many different degrees of hijab practiced by women in various different Muslim cultures, with burqas being an extreme end of the spectrum. A loosely tailored uniform (e.g. a DS9-style jumpsuit) and a sedate headscarf would probably be quite sufficient as hijab for a Muslim woman in Starfleet.

 

[Kilana2]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

A female German muslima filed a claim at the Federal Contitutional Court (highest authority) for being allowed to work as a teacher and wearing a headscarf. She won her case. That´s a breakthrough as previous court decisions cited the "principle of neutrality". So no headscarfs in civil service jobs were allowed. That has changed now.

Back to the topic: Riker once scolded Ro for wearing her Bajoran earring. Are there starfleet regulations that prohibit Bajorans from wearing their earring or is it Captain´s discretion? Or other religious symbols? Tuvok once reprimanded a younger officer for wearing a hair band that was not according to regulations. Ro wore almost the same hair band, and there were no problems.... I´m confused.....

 

[Idran]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

A female German muslima filed a claim at the Federal Contitutional Court (highest authority) for being allowed to work as a teacher and wearing a headscarf. She won her case. That´s a breakthrough as previous court decisions cited the "principle of neutrality". So no headscarfs in civil service jobs were allowed. That has changed now.

Back to the topic: Riker once scolded Ro for wearing her Bajoran earring. Are there starfleet regulations that prohibit Bajorans from wearing their earring or is it Captain´s discretion? Or other religious symbols? Tuvok once reprimanded a younger officer for wearing a hair band that was not according to regulations. Ro wore almost the same hair band, and there were no problems.... I´m confused.....

In general for most uniformed services, you need special permission to wear anything that isn't officially part of the uniform, either clothing or accessories. It's not a religious thing, it's a uniform thing.

Ro's headband I always thought was just an optional part of the Starfleet uniform, like the caps that were optional parts of the Earth Starfleet uniform in Enterprise, since it matched the command division color and all. I don't remember the Voyager incident, what episode was that?

Edit: If you want an example, I just grabbed this from a quick Google search. Basically, uniform regulations in most services say very explicitly what you have to wear and how you have to wear it, what you can wear and how you have to wear it if you choose to wear it, and under what situations you have to wear what uniforms. Even down to how you have to groom yourself.

 

[Kilana2]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

VOY episode you wanted to know was "Learning Curve".

As to the grooming: I remember VOY´s Hugh Cambridge having trouble with Chakotay because of unkempt outward appearance.

So Ro just have had to ask as to her earring. I guess after Bajors admission into the Federation Captain will be more inclined to consent to it. On the other hand, I have seen many Bajorans in Starfleet service without earrings.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Back to the topic: Riker once scolded Ro for wearing her Bajoran earring. Are there starfleet regulations that prohibit Bajorans from wearing their earring or is it Captain´s discretion? Or other religious symbols? Tuvok once reprimanded a younger officer for wearing a hair band that was not according to regulations. Ro wore almost the same hair band, and there were no problems.... I´m confused.....

That wasn't about officers in general, it was about Riker's feelings toward Ro in particular. Remember, she'd been in prison before this mission. She'd disobeyed orders on Garon II and, in the view of her court-martial board, had been responsible for getting eight fellow officers killed. So Riker didn't trust her and didn't think she had any business aboard the Enterprise. So he expected her to be a discipline problem and a troublemaker, and he didn't want her there at all, so he was much stricter with her than he would've been with an ordinary crewmember, someone he trusted and whose work he respected.

In Tuvok's case, you're thinking of "Learning Curve," where Tuvok was charged with training several Maquis crewmembers who were having trouble with Starfleet discipline. They were problem cases, and it was his job to teach them how to follow the rules. So he imposed the rules rigorously in order to instill discipline. After all, you have to learn and understand the rules before you can earn the right to bend them.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Back to the topic: Riker once scolded Ro for wearing her Bajoran earring. Are there starfleet regulations that prohibit Bajorans from wearing their earring or is it Captain´s discretion? Or other religious symbols? Tuvok once reprimanded a younger officer for wearing a hair band that was not according to regulations. Ro wore almost the same hair band, and there were no problems.... I´m confused.....

That wasn't about officers in general, it was about Riker's feelings toward Ro in particular. Remember, she'd been in prison before this mission. She'd disobeyed orders on Garon II and, in the view of her court-martial board, had been responsible for getting eight fellow officers killed. So Riker didn't trust her and didn't think she had any business aboard the Enterprise. So he expected her to be a discipline problem and a troublemaker, and he didn't want her there at all, so he was much stricter with her than he would've been with an ordinary crewmember, someone he trusted and whose work he respected.

Indeed. He never had a problem with Worf's baldric, after all (and I assume a human in a headscarf or a turban would be equally acceptable). Ro he wants to come down hard on; she has to earn the privilege in his eyes, and he's making it clear that acceptance is a privilege she must work for. So that means bare-basics.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

As for a "religious world," I'm not sure if that's supposed to mean just a world that has a religion, which most do, or one that's governed by its religious order. But the latter definitely does not apply to Bajor, since the Vedek Assembly is not a government body. When Kai Winn became First Minister in "Shakaar," it was seen as an extraordinary and questionable event, and was undone within weeks.

On the other hand, more than one Bajoran character in the novels has argued "let's face it, no matter what the legal realities, Bajor is pretty much a theocracy". The Bajoran state religion has a lot of evident political pull even if it's officially distinct from the levers of government; most of the ministers attend services and one would underestimate the influence of the Kai at their peril.

Of course, one could make essentially identical arguments about Andor or Vulcan, admittedly. They're "religious worlds" too, even if it doesn't seem too immediately apparent.

 

[Idran]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Indeed. He never had a problem with Worf's baldric, after all (and I assume a human in a headscarf or a turban would be equally acceptable).

While you and Christopher have good points about the situation with Riker and Ro, is there any reason to think that Worf didn't ask for special dispensation? I've always figured that it's as simple as Worf asked for permission in advance when he was first assigned to the Enterprise, and Ro didn't. And it was a bit late to ask after she was called out about it by Riker; it'd only make things worse on herself if she had, after all.

(Granted, if Ro had asked for permission, Riker might've denied her, but I don't think they just let Worf slide on it without arrangements ever having been made.)

 

[Markonian]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Also...the Q vs Omega continuum stuff is even more religious than a bunch of vedeks high on mappa bread and spring wine.

And yet it fits.

I didn't see anything more religious in the Q/Omega forces than I would in a new fancy string theory. But that just reaffirms the observation made further up in this thread - it's open to interpretation. I like that.

On the hijab - a female Human crewmember of the USS Lionheart wears a Muslim headdress. Maybe it was even the hijab, I think I learned that word from the novel.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

I had a discussion about religion and religious characters in Trek with a friend of mine who is Jewish Orthodox...he was actually disheartened by some of the new borderline token characters, as he always felt that the federation era earth had moved beyond overt displays of relgious belief towards something more personal to the individuals.

That's interesting. I do understand his point, but I don't think you'd ever have a situation where there's a absence of those who feel more comfortable being overt about such things.

For what it's worth; to me, literally any form of group affiliation, or any identity defined by sheltering under an ideological umbrella, is counter-intuitive and counter-productive, but I have to accept that the majority of people see affiliation and the urge to equate identity with group membership as normal. In the same way, I can't believe that the Federation, even if its "norm" (to whatever extent such a sprawling and diverse civilization could be said to have one where most matters are concerned) is to centre religious feeling internally or indulge it privately, wouldn't accept that there are some people who feel the desire to walk around in overtly religious garb and express themselves publicly. I mean, I have to work hard sometimes to accept that people aren't always making a political move and posturing / signalling / preening when they do something publicly or express affiliation, that people do have an individual identity outside of where they fit into the political structure. I suppose the Federation would likewise understand that people being overtly and obviously "Muslim", "Christian", "Hindu", etc., are quite often being true to themselves and no more deliberately imposing than anyone else. That is, it's the same self-committed private belief, only worn a bit more obviously.

Actually, this reminds me of some of the observations I've privately made regarding peoples of various European nations VS Americans on flag-waving and overt patriotic display. Europeans tend to distrust such things, associating them with intolerant, even war-like extremism, and thus have a tendency to shoot suspicious looks at Americans, who like to wave their flag and be overtly patriotic at - if you'll excuse me - the slightest opportunity. But the perspectives are different, of course, because the histories are different. Europe is a long-established web of nations, races and bloodlines with a history of tribal conflict and national tensions; they thus often shy away from overt signals of national pride in the modern era. Americans, by contrast, are a young nation founded by successive waves of diverse immigrants who all intermixed, built a new nation, fought a civil war and then reaffirmed their union in its aftermath. It strikes me that gathering around a symbol of shared identity and celebrating it is something that strikes many Americans as natural and healthy, to a degree that many Europeans find suspect. I think the idea of overt religious expression in the future of the Federation Earth might well be something similar: it strikes some as uncomfortable while others see it as nothing provocative to the idea of how that society functions.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Indeed. He never had a problem with Worf's baldric, after all (and I assume a human in a headscarf or a turban would be equally acceptable).

While you and Christopher have good points about the situation with Riker and Ro, is there any reason to think that Worf didn't ask for special dispensation? I've always figured that it's as simple as Worf asked for permission in advance when he was first assigned to the Enterprise, and Ro didn't.

No reason not to think that, no. It could just as easily be that, I admit.

EDIT: Maybe, too, it's the case that Worf can "get away with" more for political reasons. Certainly the Klingon Empire had far more political influence than impoverished, scattered refugee camps of Bajorans. So sensitivity toward Klingon cultural totems and a lack of comparable sensitivity to Bajoran ones would be quite probable.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

On the hijab - a female Human crewmember of the USS Lionheart wears a Muslim headdress. Maybe it was even the hijab, I think I learned that word from the novel.

Hijab means veiling in general. It's more a dress code than a specific garment, and it comes in many forms. The basic rule is just that everything but the face and hands should stay covered in public, and that clothes shouldn't be figure-hugging, but beyond that it's very flexible, except in subcultures where it isn't. It can be as simple as a loose, long-sleeved dress and a scarf over the hair, or as elaborate as a burqa (which is really a lot more extreme than is religiously necessary, since the Qur'an does say that showing the face is okay). And of course there are Muslim women who choose not to wear hijab at all.

http://www.islam101.com/women/hijabfaq.html

 

[jaime]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

I suspect it is much to do with starfleet uniform codes as anything as to what would be out of place. And the more extreme variants of religion would lead to that. I cannot imagine janeway fingering a command coloured rosary around her neck.

(isn't a member of Aventines command staff Portuguese? He's very likely to be catholic.)

Jasminder was great. Though that comes from my own background as a Londoner. Long accustomed to different cultures within my own, she felt like the Indian girls I went to school with, cockney as jellied eels and wearing a sari to their sisters wedding. Indian stereotypes currently in vogue on US TV make me uncomfortable as a result. Stereotypes are fiddly things and shouldnt be conflated with archetypes.

Worfs baldric is a remnant of his original Klingon Marine backstory, with him being an exchange student. Before they give him the war orphan background.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Jasminder was great. Though that comes from my own background as a Londoner.

On that note (being also of London origin) I appreciated how Captain Shumar in Rise of the Federation was depicted as Indian-British.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Pakistani-British, actually. Though I basically write Shumar as the Brigadier from Doctor Who.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Pakistani-British, actually.

My mistake.

Now I'm in for a host of "can't tell Indians from Pakistanis" teasing, I'm sure. How embarrassing.

 

[jaime]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Pakistani-British, actually. Though I basically write Shumar as the Brigadier from Doctor Who.

Cestus ii? No...I'm pretty sure that's Cromer

 

[jaime]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Pakistani-British, actually.

My mistake.

Now I'm in for a host of "can't tell Indians from Pakistanis" teasing, I'm sure. How embarrassing.

To be fair unless he outright brings it up in the story, it would be like telling someone from EIRE from someone from NI, which on a printed page and without stepping into the difficult grounds of writing an accent....its not really going to be noticeable. Maybe they reunified after world war three. Thoughts like that entertain me....like...does Picard mean that France and England were reunified in some manner?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

like...does Picard mean that France and England were reunified in some manner?

Surely only in terms of the heathen French being soundly conquered by the mighty and virile Englishmen?