Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDANCE!

[Enterprise1701]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Never mind all that, but isn't a Vedek high up in the Bajoran religion? Basically their equivalent of a Cardinal? That's quite a career jump in five years or so.

I figure it's more like a Bishop. A smaller jump, but one that is perhaps believable in Kira's case since she was world famous already for her role in Bajor's political and religious life over the years.

Well, there's the canonically-established Vedek Assembly. In the DS9 season 1 episode "In the Hands of the Prophets", Vedek Bareil Antos referred to 112 vedeks. And a kai is selected from the Vedek Assembly.

 

[Idran]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

I figure it's more like a Bishop. A smaller jump, but one that is perhaps believable in Kira's case since she was world famous already for her role in Bajor's political and religious life over the years.

That doesn't sound right; Vedek's always been presented as the religious rank just below Kai. Plus, there's the Vedek Assembly, which was always presented as a fairly significant presence akin to the College of Cardinals. A bishop would be more like a Ranjen, I'd say.

Edit: Whoops, beaten.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

I'm pretty sure that Kira specifically mentions that the Vedek Assembly considered her friendship with Bajoran Jesus to be like on-the-job training that got her promoted pretty quickly.

 

[ryan123450]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Well I still always had the feeling that there were fewer steps in the Bajoran religious hierarchery than in Catholicism. I saw Ranjen almost like a Deacon.

Do we know of any other offices besides Ranjen, Vedek, amd Kai?

 

[Christopher]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Sisko isn't "Bajoran Jesus." The Emissary is more like, well, a prophet in the literal sense, a messenger or intermediary. So he'd be more akin to St. Paul or Isaiah, maybe, though I'm not an expert in Biblical lore. Or maybe Joan of Arc? (Frankly, DS9's creators misused the word "prophet" when they applied it to the wormhole aliens, because in a religious context it means someone who speaks on behalf of the divine, rather than the secular sense of someone who can foretell the future. So it confused the issue to have an "Emissary of the Prophets," since a prophet is an emissary.)

 

[The Wormhole]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Well I still always had the feeling that there were fewer steps in the Bajoran religious hierarchery than in Catholicism. I saw Ranjen almost like a Deacon.

Do we know of any other offices besides Ranjen, Vedek, amd Kai?

There's also a Prylar which seem to be the lowest rung on the ladder.

 

[Enterpriserules]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Sisko isn't "Bajoran Jesus." The Emissary is more like, well, a prophet in the literal sense, a messenger or intermediary. So he'd be more akin to St. Paul or Isaiah, maybe, though I'm not an expert in Biblical lore. Or maybe Joan of Arc? (Frankly, DS9's creators misused the word "prophet" when they applied it to the wormhole aliens, because in a religious context it means someone who speaks on behalf of the divine, rather than the secular sense of someone who can foretell the future. So it confused the issue to have an "Emissary of the Prophets," since a prophet is an emissary.)

I would say there are strains of a messiah like character in Sisko, obviously him being part Prophet and part human in his birth is related to Jesus birth, yet it is not a one for one. The DS9 writers were smart in not making it so. The Bajoran religion and religious system feels familiar and alien, I think that is what they wanted, for viewers to be able to "know it" without knowing everything about it. I think "The Prophets" are the name given to the beings in the Celestial Temple by the Bajorans, not the name they would give to themselves; since they tell the future, makes sense the the Bajorans would consider them Prophets. They name Sisko their Emissary hence how the Bajorans see Sisko "Emissary of The Prophets."

 

[Gul Re'jal]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

I would say there are strains of a messiah like character in Sisko, obviously him being part Prophet and part human in his birth is related to Jesus birth, yet it is not a one for one.

Hmm, being sticker to details, Sisko was no "part" Prophet. He was 100% human. A Prophet entered his mother's body to use her like a puppet, but genetically Sisko's DNA is homo sapiens.

 

[Enterpriserules]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

I would say there are strains of a messiah like character in Sisko, obviously him being part Prophet and part human in his birth is related to Jesus birth, yet it is not a one for one.

Hmm, being sticker to details, Sisko was no "part" Prophet. He was 100% human. A Prophet entered his mother's body to use her like a puppet, but genetically Sisko's DNA is homo sapiens.

Ok, but still his birth is engineered by the Prophets so there are still strains of Jesus there. I would say you could make an argument that there is some Prophet in him that allows him to become more in tune with them as the series moves forward. Even if that is not the case, there are still parts of the Jesus story in Sisko's birth. It is the reason they can say Sisko is of Bajor again mirroring Jesus that he was a Man as well as God. Like I said, not one for one at all, which is good because it give the Bajoran religion it's own flavor.

 

[20fridge]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

I would say there are strains of a messiah like character in Sisko, obviously him being part Prophet and part human in his birth is related to Jesus birth, yet it is not a one for one.

Hmm, being sticker to details, Sisko was no "part" Prophet. He was 100% human. A Prophet entered his mother's body to use her like a puppet, but genetically Sisko's DNA is homo sapiens.

Ok, but still his birth is engineered by the Prophets so there are still strains of Jesus there. I would say you could make an argument that there is some Prophet in him that allows him to become more in tune with them as the series moves forward. Even if that is not the case, there are still parts of the Jesus story in Sisko's birth. It is the reason they can say Sisko is of Bajor again mirroring Jesus that he was a Man as well as God. Like I said, not one for one at all, which is good because it give the Bajoran religion it's own flavor.

I'd say the Jesus comparison is stronger when considering his "death" in What You Leave Behind. He sacrifices himself to destroy evil and then ascends to the celestial temple. Also, he foretells his return.

But yeah, it's definitely not a one to one comparison, and it really differs once you get to Rough Beasts of Empire.

 

[ryan123450]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Well I still always had the feeling that there were fewer steps in the Bajoran religious hierarchery than in Catholicism. I saw Ranjen almost like a Deacon.

Do we know of any other offices besides Ranjen, Vedek, amd Kai?

There's also a Prylar which seem to be the lowest rung on the ladder.

Oh yes. I forgot about them. Well if there is a one to one ratio then it would work out with each system having a three rung order, with some of the members of the top rung forming a smaller group used to select a leader from among their ranks.

Deacon-Presbyter-Bishop-Cardinal-Pope
Prylar-Ranjen-Vedek-Vedek Assembly Member- Kai

 

[Enterpriserules]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Hmm, being sticker to details, Sisko was no "part" Prophet. He was 100% human. A Prophet entered his mother's body to use her like a puppet, but genetically Sisko's DNA is homo sapiens.

Ok, but still his birth is engineered by the Prophets so there are still strains of Jesus there. I would say you could make an argument that there is some Prophet in him that allows him to become more in tune with them as the series moves forward. Even if that is not the case, there are still parts of the Jesus story in Sisko's birth. It is the reason they can say Sisko is of Bajor again mirroring Jesus that he was a Man as well as God. Like I said, not one for one at all, which is good because it give the Bajoran religion it's own flavor.

I'd say the Jesus comparison is stronger when considering his "death" in What You Leave Behind. He sacrifices himself to destroy evil and then ascends to the celestial temple. Also, he foretells his return.

But yeah, it's definitely not a one to one comparison, and it really differs once you get to Rough Beasts of Empire.

Which I see as one of the greatest weaknesses and frustrations with the way they brought back Sisko. The Prophets make it clear to Sisko they had more for him to do, even when he would return, Sisko says he has a lot to learn from them before he does, then he comes back and is just.... nothing anymore. I did not like they way he is just relieved of his duties as Emissary. Honestly it felt like the writers did not know what to do with him, so they just made it easier to deal with by stripping him of what made him such a unique character. Especially since at the end of Unity you felt that Ben did have a purpose for coming back and much to do as Emissary.

 

[20fridge]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

Ok, but still his birth is engineered by the Prophets so there are still strains of Jesus there. I would say you could make an argument that there is some Prophet in him that allows him to become more in tune with them as the series moves forward. Even if that is not the case, there are still parts of the Jesus story in Sisko's birth. It is the reason they can say Sisko is of Bajor again mirroring Jesus that he was a Man as well as God. Like I said, not one for one at all, which is good because it give the Bajoran religion it's own flavor.

I'd say the Jesus comparison is stronger when considering his "death" in What You Leave Behind. He sacrifices himself to destroy evil and then ascends to the celestial temple. Also, he foretells his return.

But yeah, it's definitely not a one to one comparison, and it really differs once you get to Rough Beasts of Empire.

Which I see as one of the greatest weaknesses and frustrations with the way they brought back Sisko. The Prophets make it clear to Sisko they had more for him to do, even when he would return, Sisko says he has a lot to learn from them before he does, then he comes back and is just.... nothing anymore. I did not like they way he is just relieved of his duties as Emissary. Honestly it felt like the writers did not know what to do with him, so they just made it easier to deal with by stripping him of what made him such a unique character. Especially since at the end of Unity you felt that Ben did have a purpose for coming back and much to do as Emissary.

Well, in The Soul Key it seems like Sisko was preparing Vaughn to play some sort of role. But now Vaughn's dead and Kira is playing more of an Emissary-like role. I wouldn't be surprised if the upcoming novels deal more with her role.

 

[Enterpriserules]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

I'd say the Jesus comparison is stronger when considering his "death" in What You Leave Behind. He sacrifices himself to destroy evil and then ascends to the celestial temple. Also, he foretells his return.

But yeah, it's definitely not a one to one comparison, and it really differs once you get to Rough Beasts of Empire.

Which I see as one of the greatest weaknesses and frustrations with the way they brought back Sisko. The Prophets make it clear to Sisko they had more for him to do, even when he would return, Sisko says he has a lot to learn from them before he does, then he comes back and is just.... nothing anymore. I did not like they way he is just relieved of his duties as Emissary. Honestly it felt like the writers did not know what to do with him, so they just made it easier to deal with by stripping him of what made him such a unique character. Especially since at the end of Unity you felt that Ben did have a purpose for coming back and much to do as Emissary.

Well, in The Soul Key it seems like Sisko was preparing Vaughn to play some sort of role. But now Vaughn's dead and Kira is playing more of an Emissary-like role. I wouldn't be surprised if the upcoming novels deal more with her role.

Yes that is true. For me it was the most un-DS9 part of the relaunch. The show had embarrassed that part for Sisko and the books, very unceremoniously took it away from him with little to no explanation as to why. Sisko ending up where he is not is not the issue, I just felt him getting there was not handled in a way that did service to all that we had seen in the show and where Unity left off.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

I think "The Prophets" are the name given to the beings in the Celestial Temple by the Bajorans, not the name they would give to themselves; since they tell the future, makes sense the the Bajorans would consider them Prophets.

But that's just what I'm saying -- that's not what the word "prophet" actually means in a religious context. It's a secular interpretation of the word, the belief that it means someone who can predict the future, because those who see the future are generally assumed to be divinely inspired, so there's an overlap. But literally, a prophet is a spokesperson for the divine, a messenger who relays the word of the divine to mortals, like Moses or Muhammad. It's not specifically about seeing the future, it's about relaying divinely inspired knowledge or commandments of any kind.

Presumably the Bajoran word for the wormhole aliens in their own language does mean "those who see the future," but whatever Federation linguist (or Hollywood scriptwriter) translated that into the English word "Prophets" was in error. "The Seers" might have been a better rendering.

Hmm, being sticker to details, Sisko was no "part" Prophet. He was 100% human. A Prophet entered his mother's body to use her like a puppet, but genetically Sisko's DNA is homo sapiens.

Ok, but still his birth is engineered by the Prophets so there are still strains of Jesus there.

The difference being that Mary actually gave her advance consent to become the mother of Jesus ("Be it unto me according to thy word" -- Luke 1:38). Sarah was basically slipped a space roofie and forced to marry a stranger against her will. Basically what this revealed was that Ben Sisko, our beloved hero, was conceived through an act of rape. And that was a horrible, awful, terrible decision on the part of the writers. Sisko shouldn't just have said "This isn't easy to accept" when he found out -- he should've gotten furious and railed at the Prophets for the unforgivable violation they imposed on Sarah. How can we see the Prophets as benevolent deities after learning that they essentially endorse sex slavery? On top of all the other reasons it was a bad plot development, it was morally reprehensible.

And it underlines the fatal flaw of DS9's all-male writing staff -- that there was nobody around to tell them what a terribly sexist choice they were making, basically defining Sisko's mother as nothing more than an object whose body and entire life had no value except in service to male characters.

 

[Enterpriserules]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

I think "The Prophets" are the name given to the beings in the Celestial Temple by the Bajorans, not the name they would give to themselves; since they tell the future, makes sense the the Bajorans would consider them Prophets.

But that's just what I'm saying -- that's not what the word "prophet" actually means in a religious context. It's a secular interpretation of the word, the belief that it means someone who can predict the future, because those who see the future are generally assumed to be divinely inspired, so there's an overlap. But literally, a prophet is a spokesperson for the divine, a messenger who relays the word of the divine to mortals, like Moses or Muhammad. It's not specifically about seeing the future, it's about relaying divinely inspired knowledge or commandments of any kind.

Presumably the Bajoran word for the wormhole aliens in their own language does mean "those who see the future," but whatever Federation linguist (or Hollywood scriptwriter) translated that into the English word "Prophets" was in error. "The Seers" might have been a better rendering.

Hmm, being sticker to details, Sisko was no "part" Prophet. He was 100% human. A Prophet entered his mother's body to use her like a puppet, but genetically Sisko's DNA is homo sapiens.

Ok, but still his birth is engineered by the Prophets so there are still strains of Jesus there.

The difference being that Mary actually gave her advance consent to become the mother of Jesus ("Be it unto me according to thy word" -- Luke 1:38). Sarah was basically slipped a space roofie and forced to marry a stranger against her will. Basically what this revealed was that Ben Sisko, our beloved hero, was conceived through an act of rape. And that was a horrible, awful, terrible decision on the part of the writers. Sisko shouldn't just have said "This isn't easy to accept" when he found out -- he should've gotten furious and railed at the Prophets for the unforgivable violation they imposed on Sarah. How can we see the Prophets as benevolent deities after learning that they essentially endorse sex slavery? On top of all the other reasons it was a bad plot development, it was morally reprehensible.

And it underlines the fatal flaw of DS9's all-male writing staff -- that there was nobody around to tell them what a terribly sexist choice they were making, basically defining Sisko's mother as nothing more than an object whose body and entire life had no value except in service to male characters.

I make sense of it this way, a more secular Bajor in the past has their first encounter with what becomes known as "The Prophets" and the beings never do anything to correct the name with one of there own and for the society as a whole it sticks.

On Sara. I have to remember that the beings are non-corporal and when they interact with her, they have no notion of human ideals. You are layering human morality on them, which unless you want to say there is an absolute, (And I would say there is absolute right and wrong, so I would consider what they did wrong), then you cannot say what they did was bad. They did what they thought was right and what would impact Bajor in the outcome they thought was best.

I do hope these new books add to the background of Kira as a Vedek, Ben's growth after his time in the Celestial Temple and not being the Emissary anymore and having Ben play a larger role in the 24th century in general. Just glad to see it back in a big way!

 

[Christopher]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

I make sense of it this way, a more secular Bajor in the past has their first encounter with what becomes known as "The Prophets" and the beings never do anything to correct the name with one of there own and for the society as a whole it sticks.

Except Bajorans don't speak English, or rather, Greek. Of course the name is a human translation, so it makes more sense to attribute the fault to the translators.

On Sara. I have to remember that the beings are non-corporal and when they interact with her, they have no notion of human ideals. You are layering human morality on them, which unless you want to say there is an absolute, (And I would say there is absolute right and wrong, so I would consider what they did wrong), then you cannot say what they did was bad.

Hell, yes, I can say it was bad, because they sexually violated a nonconsenting woman! No remotely moral human being could think of that as anything but bad! Sure, you can argue that the Prophets didn't realize what a horrible atrocity they were inflicting, but that absolutely does not mean it wasn't an atrocity. What makes an action good or bad is in its effect, not its intent. If you run over someone's dog by accident, that doesn't mean the dog is unhurt.

 

[Enterpriserules]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

I make sense of it this way, a more secular Bajor in the past has their first encounter with what becomes known as "The Prophets" and the beings never do anything to correct the name with one of there own and for the society as a whole it sticks.

Except Bajorans don't speak English, or rather, Greek. Of course the name is a human translation, so it makes more sense to attribute the fault to the translators.

On Sara. I have to remember that the beings are non-corporal and when they interact with her, they have no notion of human ideals. You are layering human morality on them, which unless you want to say there is an absolute, (And I would say there is absolute right and wrong, so I would consider what they did wrong), then you cannot say what they did was bad.

Hell, yes, I can say it was bad, because they sexually violated a nonconsenting woman! No remotely moral human being could think of that as anything but bad! Sure, you can argue that the Prophets didn't realize what a horrible atrocity they were inflicting, but that absolutely does not mean it wasn't an atrocity. What makes an action good or bad is in its effect, not its intent. If you run over someone's dog by accident, that doesn't mean the dog is unhurt.

How can you, when you are forcing your morality on an alien species that has a completely different view off the universe than you do, unless there is a moral absolute to the universe. That is what I am asking you. I believe in a moral absolute and therefore can call what they did evil. In fact how can anything be good or bad in the end if there is no way to base the action except on its outcome. The outcome with the Prophets intervention was the galaxy was saved..... so seems if we go by your logic, then the effect leads to something beneficial to everyone and therefore is to be labeled good.

Where does the idea of good and evil come from? If it is just by the effect something causes, there is a lot of interpretation involved in that. As Obi-Wan said, it would just be about your point of view, at that point, unless good and evil are defined by an absolute, outside culture and time, by something immutable.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

How can you, when you are forcing your morality on an alien species that has a completely different view off the universe than you do, unless there is a moral absolute to the universe.

You're totally missing the point, because you're making the same mistake the writers did -- treating the victim of the assault as a non-entity. Who cares about the alien species' morality? I'm talking about the consequences to Sarah, about how violated she must have felt. I'm talking about a woman being forced into marriage and sex without any say in the matter. The person whose opinion matters in a case like that is the victim, not the perpetrator.

I mean, good grief, obviously most rapists don't think they're doing anything wrong. So it makes no sense to judge the morality of the act based on the beliefs of the perpetrator.

The outcome with the Prophets intervention was the galaxy was saved..... so seems if we go by your logic, then the effect leads to something beneficial to everyone and therefore is to be labeled good.

Are you seriously trying to find a way to argue that RAPE can be good?

 

[Enterpriserules]

Re: Hey, everyone! DRG's DS9 novel after Sacraments is called ASCENDA

How can you, when you are forcing your morality on an alien species that has a completely different view off the universe than you do, unless there is a moral absolute to the universe.

You're totally missing the point, because you're making the same mistake the writers did -- treating the victim of the assault as a non-entity. Who cares about the alien species' morality? I'm talking about the consequences to Sarah, about how violated she must have felt. I'm talking about a woman being forced into marriage and sex without any say in the matter. The person whose opinion matters in a case like that is the victim, not the perpetrator.

I mean, good grief, obviously most rapists don't think they're doing anything wrong. So it makes no sense to judge the morality of the act based on the beliefs of the perpetrator.

The outcome with the Prophets intervention was the galaxy was saved..... so seems if we go by your logic, then the effect leads to something beneficial to everyone and therefore is to be labeled good.

Are you seriously trying to find a way to argue that RAPE can be good?

No, I am not. Let me make that clear.

I am saying that unless you believe in an absolute morality, then you cannot say what happened to Sarah is evil or wrong. I do believe that and therefore I do call it wrong and evil. I think you are missing the point. You cannot have it both ways. Either there is an absolute moral right and wrong or there is just what you said, the outcome, the effect ie, "the ends justify the means"

You said what happened to Sarah was wrong. I have been trying to get to the root of how you can say that unless you believe there is an absolute moral right and wrong that transcends culture, time, space and dimensions. Because calling what they did wrong, without there being an absolute, immutable, moral, cannot actually be wrong, it's a matter of perspective, of effect. That's where the logic you put forth, of it being about the effect it has one someone leads. Cause the effect on Sarah, not good, but the larger effect, well it's pretty good for the galaxy at large. But if there is an absolute standard of good and evil, I can say, regardless of the outcome on Sarah and the galaxy, that what happened to Sarah is always, without a doubt, in any time, place, dimension or culture, that it is evil.