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Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE)

Grade the episode


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Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

The problem with the producers killing the deadwood is that we have different opinions of who the "deadwood" is. ;)

I certainly know who I would kill if I were in charge of this show, but I'm sure I'd precipitate a fan rebellion just like Nathan's dead has created. :rommie:

What better way to stir things up than the permanent death of Hiro?
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

The problem with the producers killing the deadwood is that we have different opinions of who the "deadwood" is. ;)

I certainly know who I would kill if I were in charge of this show, but I'm sure I'd precipitate a fan rebellion just like Nathan's dead has created. :rommie:

What better way to stir things up than the permanent death of Hiro?

The thing is they kill off Nathan ever year, people should be used to it be now.
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

The problem with the producers killing the deadwood is that we have different opinions of who the "deadwood" is. ;)

It is a matter of opinion. But the writers/show runner need to sit down and take a long unflinching look at their characters. This show drags a lot dead weight around. If a character story has gone as far as it logically can go: deadwood. Claire is deadwood. A static Hiro - as opposed to one moving away from the boy-child to something more: deadwood. Ando, as much as I like him, doesn't work without Hiro, so he goes too.

In fact give me Angela, Noah, Peter and Parkman and start over from there.
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

In fact give me Angela, Noah, Peter and Parkman and start over from there.
Works for me. :bolian: Plus the Nathan-Sylar character - whatever the frak he is at this point - for another season - after which, I think they need to resolve the situation in some definitive way.
The thing is they kill off Nathan ever year, people should be used to it be now.

The other times were fake-outs. This time it's disconcertingly real. I can respect the lack of cheating finally, but of course anything risky is going to rile some people up.
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

Of course my vision is negative. I got left with Mohinder and Clare and they took Nathan. Mohinder and Clare suck.
I wouldn't say suck but the characters are just not interesting.

Mohinder and Ando could be improved via writing.
True but I've given this show enough chances to improve the characters and I'm through with giving second chances. They haven't come through--not even with Fuller. So I'm done. I've given this show more than enough of my time for it to just be middling.
So trimming the deadwood would be for the best. Too many of these characters are far too damaged from wayward plotting and schizophrenic characterization to be rehabilitated in any interesting way. And let's face it, even when the show was at its entertaining best, it was incapable of meaningful character development.
I completely agree with this. I've been saying for a while now that the characters in season one worked well enough but were more or less adequate but enjoyable action figures caught up in an intriguing and interesting epic unfolding drama where it was interesting learning their backstories, seeing many perspectives from a wide spectrum of characters, learning about their interconnections with one another, seeing their reactions to what they learned, watching them working together against various threats, and searching for answers. There wasn't a whole lot of deep character probing going on. And whatever was lacking was made up for with the interesting mysteries, the great cliffhangers, the skillful plot structure exactly like LOST. That's what Heroes needs again because these characters aren't sufficiently interesting to carry a show themselves.
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

And whatever was lacking was made up for with the interesting mysteries, the great cliffhangers, the skillful plot structure exactly like LOST. That's what Heroes needs again because these characters aren't sufficiently interesting to carry a show themselves.
Now that normal humans have started to learn about their existence, the heroes will have to re-form the Company just for self defense. That means that ethical people like Matt, Mohinder, Peter and Claire are going to be forced off their moral high horses and have to do potentially nasty stuff, in a two-front battle against 1) normal humans who will want to kill/incarcerate/coerce or manipulate the metahumans and 2) metahumans who go off the reservation and threaten other metahumans either with exposure or by attacking them directly.

They should be in an incredible amount of danger, when you think about it - those who don't fear and hate them would try to use them in nefarious schemes or dissect them. If that isn't drama enough for Heroes, then this show truly is hopeless!

And maybe something can be done with the mystery of where these powers came from to begin with. It's always nice to have an overarching mystery behind all the action and angst.

they seem to be ambiguous about whether it was Nathan's mind or memories that Sylar is carrying around

What's the difference between his "mind" and his "memories"? To me those are just different ways of saying the same thing.
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

If my mind has been transferred into Sylar, then possibly I'm still alive.

If only my memories have been transferred, I'm still dead.
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

If my mind has been transferred into Sylar, then possibly I'm still alive.

If only my memories have been transferred, I'm still dead.

QFT. There's nothing tangible left of Nathan. Nathan Petrelli is dead. Period.
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

well its important b/c if the writers consider mind(or consiousness) & memories the same thing then they might treat the implanted Nathan memories as a separate identity, or even the same character...which means the original character of Nathan isnt really gone.

but if they consider "memories" & "mind" to be different then they need to specify what actually happened b/c the finale clearly shows Matt giving Sylar Nate's memories, not transfering his mind/consciousness. Nathan was long dead when they got there... in that case there is no Nathan or even a "2nd" Nathan, its just Sylar with fake memories of someone else thinking he's that person, until he starts to realize what really happened.

But both that Pasdar/Grunberg interview I posted a couple days ago & the intro to this latest comic suggest that Nathan's consciousness might have been placed in Sylar's body...wihich contradicts what happened in the finale!:confused:


the only way it would make sense with what did happen in the finale is if somehow the collection of memories creates a sentient second indentity within Syalr & separates itself from Sylar's memories/personality, but that's really stretching things. It still wouldnt be the old Nathan but a kind of incomplete copy. Which is creepy & I admit would be kind of interesting. I have a feeling thats what they might end up doing...

its confusing... I have a feeling the writers find it confusing too & are gonna assume the audience wont really understand the difference either.

sorry I rambled, this subject is fascinating to me.:)
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

You should take nothing at face value on this show -- not because things may not be what they seem, but because will just do whatever the hell they want, whenever they want.

Hell, next season, they can say Noah has a power where if he eats Nathan's body, he can crap Nathan out alive.
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

^that would be the most amazing thing ever... bring it on! :lol:
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

And whatever was lacking was made up for with the interesting mysteries, the great cliffhangers, the skillful plot structure exactly like LOST. That's what Heroes needs again because these characters aren't sufficiently interesting to carry a show themselves.
Now that normal humans have started to learn about their existence
Have they? Angela told everyone that they managed to cover up their existence back in the 60s. I assume they'll engage in the same clean-up as before destroying evidence they existed and sending the Haitian out to erase memories. They'll go back to living under the radar.
the heroes will have to re-form the Company just for self defense.
I suspect the Company will do what it did in season one--monitor those with abilities and imprison those deemed too dangerous.
That means that ethical people like Matt, Mohinder, Peter and Claire are going to be forced off their moral high horses and have to do potentially nasty stuff, in a two-front battle against 1) normal humans who will want to kill/incarcerate/coerce or manipulate the metahumans
I thought that was what "Fugitives" was suppose to be about and if we didn't get any of that sort of stuff I suspect that train has already left the station. They'll be onto the next storyline.
They should be in an incredible amount of danger, when you think about it - those who don't fear and hate them would try to use them in nefarious schemes or dissect them.
Wasn't that suppose to be the focus of "Villians" and "Fugitives"? What makes you think the writers feel those two areas haven't already been covered sufficiently?
And maybe something can be done with the mystery of where these powers came from to begin with. It's always nice to have an overarching mystery behind all the action and angst.
True. And there are a few mysteries from season one that have yet to be addressed. I read articles from writers during season one where they said they were going to be story points in subsequent seasons but as the years have gone on I certainly don't have much faith in that coming to fruition.
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

I'm still thinking the biggest mistakes they ever made were neutering Peter and Hiro. Superheroes with no powers - and no useful skills - are dull as toast.
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

If my mind has been transferred into Sylar, then possibly I'm still alive.

If only my memories have been transferred, I'm still dead.

If your mind is transferred into another person and you are killed, I'd say you're still dead. "Transferred" means copied - you can't directly place your original mind anywhere, but it can be copied. So either way, you're dead.

Maybe you're thinking of brain transplant. If you physically remove your brain and place it in someone else's skull, then yeah, you're still alive. But the mind isn't the brain. The mind is the pattern of memories that are coded onto the brain - software, not hardware. Our minds are nothing more than the collection of our memories. What else could it be?

well its important b/c if the writers consider mind(or consiousness) & memories the same thing then they might treat the implanted Nathan memories as a separate identity, or even the same character...which means the original character of Nathan isnt really gone.
Nathan is irretrievably dead, but a new character has been invented, who bears a lot of resemblances to original Nathan, and some very distinct differences, chief of which is his potential to revert to Sylar. This new character will stll have emotional meaning to the other characters - depending on whether they know the truth - and will still have the potential for some fascinating drama. And Adrian Pasdar will have some great acting challenges ahead, which should be fun to watch.

Let's reverse the situation, just for fun: let's say in the season finale, that Nathan did not die but instead develops a new power, which causes him to turn into another being whether he wants to or not, and that being just happens to be Sylar. Then we still have a guy who looks, acts and thinks just like Nathan Petrelli, and has the potential to become Sylar at some point in the future - how is that guy different from the Nathan who is now on the show? Is that guy "real" Nathan?

And whatever was lacking was made up for with the interesting mysteries, the great cliffhangers, the skillful plot structure exactly like LOST. That's what Heroes needs again because these characters aren't sufficiently interesting to carry a show themselves.
Now that normal humans have started to learn about their existence
Have they?

The President knows about the metahumans and so do everyone who has worked for Danko. Plus I'm sure some new people in the government will be brought in on the secret, untainted by their association with Danko, who can be trusted not to be bigoted against metahumans, as government liaisons with the Company. It would be pretty twisted to make Noah and Angela work with the people who used to try to hunt them down. That's what I mean by people being clued in. The general public is still in the dark.

They should be in an incredible amount of danger, when you think about it - those who don't fear and hate them would try to use them in nefarious schemes or dissect them.
Wasn't that suppose to be the focus of "Villians" and "Fugitives"? What makes you think the writers feel those two areas haven't already been covered sufficiently?
They're still in danger - that situation hasn't changed. (In fact, how can it change? Other than by all the metas losing their powers?) And the writers botched this theme so badly in S3 that I think they owe us a proper storyline next season, to compensate for what we had to suffer through.

And yes, I am assuming they're capable of it. The eternal optimist. :rommie:
 
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Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

The President knows about the metahumans and so do everyone who has worked for Danko. Plus I'm sure some new people in the government will be brought in on the secret, untainted by their association with Danko, who can be trusted not to be bigoted against metahumans, as government liaisons with the Company.
Yes, but if the writers want to avoid a big plot hole and to avoid making Angela & Noah look like idiots then realistically they would not permit anyone to remember them including the President. A lot of the agents including Danko were still in Building 26 knocked out by Hiro so it would be a cakewalk to send the Haitian in to erase their memories. And I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to arrange for the Haitian to tag along with "Nathan" to erase the President's memories. Afterall, Angela said the Company did the very same thing back in the 60s.
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

Yes, but if the writers want to avoid a big plot hole and to avoid making Angela & Noah look like idiots then realistically they would not permit anyone to remember them including the President.
I just rewatched the finale, which unlike everyone else in the universe, I loved :D, and at the faux-Sylar-funeral-pyre scene, Noah tells Angela they have "government funding" for the Company, so apparently Worfbama is okay with their plan and willing to turn Danko's operation over the "good" metahumans who can be relied upon to be both loyal and effective in keeping the bad ones at bay and presumably intervening before new metas go bad. Which is really the smartest way to handle the situation.

Also, presumably Worfbama was okay with Peter imitating him, or else what happened, did Peter and the gang conk the Prez over the head and hide him in a closet? They'd all have to be fleeing the country by now if they'd done that. (This does raise a disturbing issue - the plan presumed that Sylar would kill and replace someone in the Prez's entourage. I guess that's better than the Prez being replaced by a mutant psycho.)

It all makes sense. Danko's approach led to a situation where the Prez was almost killed, and he was rescued only by the good metahumans (Noah, Peter, Claire, after they were captured by the Secret Service) coming up with a plan to save him, which worked. Now Worfbama trusts them to handle things.

However, what Worfbama doesn't know is that Angela and Noah aren't telling him the whole truth. I'm certain he thinks, like everyone else, that Sylar is truly dead. When he learns that Senator Petrelli is the mutant psycho who tried to murder him, and apparently nobody has even been keeping an eye on the guy. except for his doting, willfully blind mother - wowee, watch out. The Prez would be fully justified in re-opening the concentration camps if even the "good" metas will double-deal like that.

If Noah were smart, he'd insist that Angela just get over it. They can stage a quiet little car crash and dispose of "Nathan" that way, before things get out of control. Is Noah really so naive as to think there's no possibility that Sylar will re-emerge?

How about Matt, how much faith does he have in his own powers? He's never been able to brainwash anyone long-term before - maybe he can in this case because his powers interact with Sylar's memory absorption - but that's terra incognita, and considering the immense consequences if the plan fails, Matt should blow the whistle on the whole operation right now. This plan is going to create the situation he fears, where his son and all the other metas are considered inherently untrustworthy and too dangerous to be allowed to live freely in society.

But Noah is loyal, and Angela is his ally. Plus if Noah tells the truth, Claire will find out he lied to her. Matt probably respects Angela and Noah's right to keep a secret from their own children - it will be hard for him to override their perogative and reveal it himself. Poor Matt doesn't have faith in his own intelligence, but I suspect he's actually wiser than either Noah or Angela. He's obviously uneasy about the situation and he needs to trust his instincts. His own self-doubt will be the very thing that threatens the future he is trying to create for his son.

But so far, only Angela has seen the veil slipping, and she won't say anything that will upset her fool's paradise. This is all going to go wonderfully to hell, and hopefully it won't require any iffy plot logic or bad characterization to get there.

Another thing I noticed in my re-watching the episode - Nathan has changed to "Mom" for Angela rather than "Ma." If he starts calling his brother "Peter" rather than "Pete," will he notice something is wrong?
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

WTF was that season 3 has been one waste of time and that wasn't a fight it was a slaughter, Sylar killing NATHAN so easily so they can do one of there kill Nathan off at the season fnale annual plots was CRAP. That was 100% hack hack hack job and for fuck sakes give us an epic peter/sylar fight and end it.

Bryan cannot save this show, worst episode of Heroes ever.
 
Re: Heroes 3x25 "An Invisible Thread" Discuss and Grade (SEASON FINALE

after rewatching this episode, man....this show has jumped the shark so many times. this episode especiallly. if sylar could kill nathan just liike that...than why didn't he do that to Peter and Nathan, using both fingers? Chuck's finale was so much better. Hell Sara Connor Chronicles was too. and I am gonna assume that Smallville's will be too, at least we will see (here's hoping anyways) a real showdown, with an actual fight that we will see with the freakin door open!
 
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