Heroes 3x20 "Cold Snap" Discuss and Grade

[Hermiod]

He had sensible limitations in S1 but those went away and it got bad in S2. Just one example, Adam kills that woman (one of the original metahumans) in an exceedingly suspicious way and Peter doesn't give Adam a quick scan to see what's up. I could accept that Peter is excessively naive which is why he doesn't scan minds as a matter of course, but at that point, he'd have to be brain-dead not to do it.

It is still true that Peter's power was limited. He learned to overcome that limitation and it was fine. I've said this a million times, but if you can't write an interesting story about a guy with Peter's powers then you lack the imagination to work in any kind of professional fiction.

Oh, and Victoria Pratt didn't have a power, just so you know. She was the Company's original Mohinder.

His time travel ability also raises the issue of why he can't travel back in time and solve pretty much any problem that arises, or at least try. They had an interesting angle going with the plotline where Peter swipes Sylar's power in order to know how to change things - time travel alone doesn't tell you what to do, and you just might make things worse - but that was just one of many plotlines that went nowhere and were unceremoniously dropped.

That was a shame, sure. Hiro's power has two limitations. First, Future Hiro indicated that traveling back in time to warn Peter to "save the Cheerleader" ran the risk of causing a "rift".

Second, his experiences with trying to save Charlie and then with Adam Monroe prove that time travel invariably doesn't solve your problems and often causes them in the first place.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

As long as Peter was able to sponge up and maintain the power of any other hero he came in contact with, he was never limited in any practical sense. Only starting to overload limited him. That's too much. For me, it's too much. And I agree wholeheartedly that time travel should be dropped. It's too much of a temptation and a crutch in storytelling which ultimately raises plot holes. Still I ask myself, "Why didn't Peter go back an hour before that press conference? At least try to talk to Nathan?" Makes no sense that he didn't try. You can always kill him later. You can kill him at any point if you can time travel. It raises the question of, "Why don't you?" The temptation to try is always there in spite of the risk of creating a "rift." Better to eliminate time travel as a power.

Hell, if Fuller's going to have to ignore what happened before to fix (or recreate) the Petrelli bond, he may as well script that knock down drag out fight with Peter and Nathan. No powers aloud. Nothing else is going to fix them.

 

[Checkmate]

The easy way to give Peter his old power back and keep him limited is to do exactly what they were starting to do in the first season: Limit how many powers he can have "stored" at any one time (too many and he grows deathly ill), and force him to evoke the emotional state related to that power.

Say, a limit of the last five powers he absorbed at any given time. To use telekinesis he gained from Sylar, he has to feel murderous with a genuine urge to kill the purpose he's using it with. To use flight he gained from Nathan, he has to untrustwory and willing to double-cross at the drop of the hat.

The only other stipulation is that he can't use automatic powers (like Claire's regeneration) if unconscious and he can't perform "power stunts" like the original owners can. Such as Sylar slicing someone's brain open with telekinesis or Matt creating illusions. I know those examples are awful, but hopefully you get the idea. They need to be extremes, whatever they are.

Top that off with maybe one other power that he can use whenever he wants, like Sylar and his telekinesis, and you'd have a really well-rounded character who still needs to be smart, is fascinating to watch, and would be unique even when working with the character's he mimicking.

Sort of your cake and eating it, too.

 

[Sakrysta]

For the first time in so long I can't remember, I was glued to the screen for a Heroes episode. I got the distinct impression of a whole lot of backpedaling, reorienting, and patchwork being done, and the show was much the better for every bit of it. Even the actors' voices sounded different and better. Characters suddenly felt like they made sense! Everything was just SO much better that any potential challenges to logic just vanished.

I'm eager to see if the tone holds next week.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Time travel could still come into play as long as Peter independently confirms that time travel causes too many problems to be used casually and requires Sylar's power to use properly. Peter already knows he cannot safely use Sylar's power. That locks out time travel as an option (until some situation arises that necessitates the risk of glomming Sylar's powers).

Peter and Nathan's relationship can be plausibly repaired. Peter's a forgiving guy. Maybe Nathan can finally be contrite and explain why he thought it was so crucial to lock the metahumans up.

The fact that his own brother tried to kill him certainly is some indication that he is right to say they are dangerous even if they don't think they are - how about throwing that in Peter's self-righteous face? Peter is nice now, a killer in the future. Shouldn't Peter agree that therefore he should be locked up? Or at least admit that Nathan's fears are not so far fetched and outrageous?

We need a scene that gives Nathan something, anything of a leg to stand on for his actions. He really isn't all that wrong, it just hasn't been reinforced for us that in some ways he is right. A competent writer would have covered that base before now - Fuller can still patch it on in retrospect. (And how about a reasonable motive for Danko while he's at it? Anything besides Danko having a secret power himself, blergh.)

If Peter understands Nathan's motives, then they can kiss and make up. It's all there for Fuller to assemble into good drama that salvages the situation.

The easy way to give Peter his old power back and keep him limited is to do exactly what they were starting to do in the first season: Limit how many powers he can have "stored" at any one time (too many and he grows deathly ill), and force him to evoke the emotional state related to that power.

I'd bring that back and make it a permanent limitation (on top of the limitation that time travel is useless without Sylar's power). And I'd stop all the monkeying around with powers; it gets too confusing. Make a couple changes per season, most people stay the same.

 

[Hermiod]

As long as Peter was able to sponge up and maintain the power of any other hero he came in contact with, he was never limited in any practical sense. Only starting to overload limited him. That's too much. For me, it's too much. And I agree wholeheartedly that time travel should be dropped. It's too much of a temptation and a crutch in storytelling which ultimately raises plot holes. Still I ask myself, "Why didn't Peter go back an hour before that press conference? At least try to talk to Nathan?" Makes no sense that he didn't try. You can always kill him later. You can kill him at any point if you can time travel. It raises the question of, "Why don't you?" The temptation to try is always there in spite of the risk of creating a "rift." Better to eliminate time travel as a power.

Do you all have me on ignore or something ? Just so I know.

Charlie ? Remember her ? Has everyone forgotten season one completely ? Add to that the disaster that was Hiro's trip to feudal Japan and you've got a perfectly good reason not to use time travel that's a hell of a lot better than the emergency panic button that was Arthur Petrelli.

As for Peter being overpowered, for many decades now, there's been this fairly popular superhero. He's extremely powerful, but he has a bunch of friends and they formed a team together. The other members of that team are completely and totally redundant, he can solve pretty much any problem without them, but for some reason they stick around and they are still useful. There's even one guy who has absolutely no powers at all, and the other members of the team don't like him very much, but he's still useful.

Somehow, some way, his own comic book and the comic book for the team he's a member of have run for decades and still sell fairly well.

See if you recognise him.

 

[Guartho]

I recognize him. I haven't paid much attention to him since I was about 8 though. I started getting mad at him for not being smart enough to use power x to solve problem y etc etc etc.

 

[Hermiod]

^Being dumb is a good limitation too.

As is being a few fries short of a Happy Meal.

 

[WeAreTheBorg]

Boy, that was the best episode of Heroes in quite a long time.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

As for Peter being overpowered, for many decades now, there's been this fairly popular superhero. He's extremely powerful, but he has a bunch of friends and they formed a team together. The other members of that team are completely and totally redundant, he can solve pretty much any problem without them, but for some reason they stick around and they are still useful. There's even one guy who has absolutely no powers at all, and the other members of the team don't like him very much, but he's still useful.

That argument doesn't much work for me. I've never much cared for Supes - he's boring!

As for the 'team' - not even sure what you're talking about. DC gives me hives.

Peter should stay nerfed to some degree (but maybe give him a bit more than this one-thing-at-a-time routine); Hiro can keep the time-stopper power but get nothing else. Mo and Ando need to lose their powers altogether. The gang should form a team in which everyone uses whatever powers they have - and for powered folks and non-powered alike, intelligence is a power - cleverly and effectively, as a team.

And Sylar should continue what seems to be his likely trajectory: he will team up with Danko and eventually kill him and take his place. The gubmint will be impressed at Sylar's effectiveness and give him his own army. This is how he will eventually work his way up to POTUS a la 5YG, only this time he won't need to be a shapeshifter.

A Sylar with the backing of the US government and military is what you would call a worthy opponent, even if the gang starts working together smartly. We wouldn't want this to be easy.

 

[Hermiod]

That argument doesn't much work for me. I've never much cared for Supes - he's boring!

As for the 'team' - not even sure what you're talking about. DC gives me hives.

The Justice League of America ring any bells ?

Peter should stay nerfed to some degree (but maybe give him a bit more than this one-thing-at-a-time routine); Hiro can keep the time-stopper power but get nothing else. Mo and Ando need to lose their powers altogether. The gang should form a team in which everyone uses whatever powers they have - and for powered folks and non-powered alike, intelligence is a power - cleverly and effectively, as a team.

Peter's useless right now. Give him back his empathic mimickry. Apart from anything else, the power suited Peter as a person. Just copying by touch eliminates the idea that there's a mental component to everyone's powers.

And Sylar should continue what seems to be his likely trajectory: he will team up with Danko and eventually kill him and take his place. The gubmint will be impressed at Sylar's effectiveness and give him his own army. This is how he will eventually work his way up to POTUS a la 5YG, only this time he won't need to be a shapeshifter.

A Sylar with the backing of the US government and military is what you would call a worthy opponent, even if the gang starts working together smartly. We wouldn't want this to be easy.

I strongly suspect the Fugitives part will be over by the end of the season. I still need a good reason why Sylar hasn't killed everyone in Building 26.

 

[Checkmate]

You mean the "fairly popular superhero" who gets his powers stolen (albeit temporarily) on an almost weekly basis? Either by kryptonite, red sunlight, magic, a vastly superior foe, or just writing him out of the script by saying he's off doing something else important? Especially in the Justice League where they have to come up with excuses to make everyone else feel important? That "fairly popular superhero?" The one who, during almost every reboot, has the writers trying to tone his ever-escalating powers down? Is that really the example you're using to show why Peter should be at full power? That guy?

And nevermind that, logically, Peter would be way more powerful than that "fairly popular superhero." Especially if he ever met the guy. Peter doesn't absorb weaknesses or limitations, either, as evidenced by Isaac, so he'd be even more powerful than that guy even if that guy was the only superhero he ever met. He'd have all of his powers and none of his weaknesses. Hell, he wouldn't even need yellow sunlight because his body is just mimicing the powers, not duplicating it or its power source. God forbid he ever met someone like the Green Lantern, too.

So, yes, Peter needed to be toned down. But I agree that they went overboard with it. They had all the answers on how to do it in the first season but quickly ignored it.

 

[Hermiod]

^None of Peter's pre-Arthur powers allowed him to be everywhere at once (unless he gets really creative with the time travel) and Milo Ventimiglia is not contracted to appear in every single episode.

The fact that they had good limitations for Peter and Hiro's powers is what really pisses me off about this whole business. They just forgot that season one happened. The best season of the show and they ignore it.

As for Peter not absorbing weaknesses, yes he does. Isaac's "weakness" for heroin was pre-existing and had nothing to do with his ability. Isaac was limiting himself. He was able to use his ability without heroin eventually. However, Peter absorbed the bad along with the good when he copied Sylar's intuitive aptitude. He took Sylar's "hunger" along with the ability to understand anything just by looking at it.

 

[Checkmate]

Peter didn't absorb the psychological effect that the power evokes so much as gained it as a result of the power. It wasn't a weakness or a limitation, it was the impact of being able to understand everything and the natural desire to understand everything. A thirst for knowledge, essentially, taken to the extreme that the power grants. It had nothing to do with the actual power itself, and it would be little different than Peter acting ridiculously brazen if he had Superman's invulnerability.

Isaac's power was limited by his need for heroine. Yes, he learned how to overcome that weakness, but it was definitely there. He could paint and draw just fine when he wasn't stoned, but he couldn't paint or draw the future without it. It facilitated his power; pretty much the exact opposite of Sylar's power in that regard. Peter could with absolutely no problem.

Take Hiro's power as another example. Every time Hiro used it, he had to concentrate extremely hard and make a stupid face. Peter pretty much just seemed to 'wish' the power into working, almost on an instinctual level. And aside from using it when he didn't even know he had the power (when he had amnesia), I don't recall Peter ever accidently ending up somewhere or somewhen he wasn't supposed to.

 

[Hermiod]

^Hiro makes the "stupid face" because that's how he focuses his power. It's the exact same thing as Peter remembering how a person makes him feel in order to use their power.

It's why Matt Parkman makes the face he does when he reads a mind or gives a mental command, it's why Sylar uses his fingers to focus his telekinesis. It doesn't actually make any difference to how the power works, it's just their way of making it work. It's like Johnny Storm shouting "Flame on!" when he wants to activate his powers.

We seen, also, that drugs have an effect on more than just Isaac's powers. Hiro was unable to use his powers when Adam Monroe exposed him to Opium. The actual precognitive ability Isaac had is not limited to those who use heroin, which we clearly see from the fact that Sylar, Matt Parkman, Arthur Petrelli and Usutu were able to use them without it.

 

[Checkmate]

Regardless of what you want to agree with, the main point remains: Peter's powers needed limitations and the example you gave (Superman) only proved the point all the more.

Heroic characters who are unstoppable are not only boring but extremely difficult to write for. Superman regularly has his powers stripped from him -- the very thing you seem to be most upset about -- in every single incarnation. Especially in movies and television. The original movie had kryptonite. The second had him become a normal human. The third relied on fake kryptonite to make him human/evil. The fourth we just don't talk about because it embarrasses me to ever admit that I've had to endure seeing it. Heck, even the most recent movie brought kryptonite into the picture. Don't even get me started on Smallville...

Like I said before, I agree that the show overcompensated on toning his power down. But he most definitely did need to be whacked with a Nerf bat. I think my suggestions earlier in the thread would have been a great compromise between keeping him powerful but restricted enough not to overshadow everyone else.

 

[Hermiod]

^I have always said that Peter's power could have remained the same and been limited at the same time. It was limited when he learned how to use powers without the donor being around - he was only able to use one power at a time. He was only able to use Claire's power by deciding to use it when Claude pushed him off the roof, it wasn't "always on". When he saved Mohinder from Sylar, he used his invisibility but wasn't able to do anything else.

Then there was the possibility that he might go nuclear. When Nathan flew him away, Peter said that he was doing everything he could just to keep Sprague's power under control, so he couldn't fly or do anything else.

As for the Superman movies - Lex used Kryptonite briefly in the first one but Superman had to use his abilities to stop the nuclear weapons. In Superman 2, Clark made a choice to give up his power out of love and getting them back cost him dearly, and again he had to use his abilities to fight Zod, Ursa and Non.

In Superman III the whole "evil" (well, more like apathetic) Superman story was entirely unnecessary since Superman had no reason to stop Gus from building the computer.

In Superman IV, he fights an enemy capable of wounding him without Kryptonite.

In Superman Returns, we're back to stupid Lex Luthor real estate schemes anyway. The flaw here is not giving Superman a weakness, it's using the wrong villain over and over again. Four out of the Five Superman movies use Luthor and the fifth just uses a cheap substitute.

Where's Brainiac, Darkseid, Doomsday, Solomon Grundy, Metallo or any of the many other villains who are actually capable of fighting Superman ?

 

[hyzmarca]

Luthor is capable of fighting Superman; he created a suit of power armor for just that purpose. The problem with Luthor in the Superman films lies with the writers using him incorrectly, especially the last one. His get-rich-quick schemes never made a lick of sense, but that one took the cake.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

However, Peter absorbed the bad along with the good when he copied Sylar's intuitive aptitude. He took Sylar's "hunger" along with the ability to understand anything just by looking at it.

Which is why Peter absorbing powers without conscious control or needing to touch anyone or even realize he's in the vicinity of a metahuman could itself be a limitation. Where are all the metas with the self-destructive powers?

 

[Jaron]

Where are all the metas with the self-destructive powers?

Self-destroyed, I would assume.