HEROES 3x04 "I Am Become Death" Discuss and Grade

[Mistral]

I really don't get why people seem so suprised and upset with Sylar possibly becoming a good guy, this always happens whenever a villain becomes popular, just look at Spike from Buffy. Honestly I've been expecting this to happen ever since Sylar started becoming popular.

I liked Gabriel-he was a very positive kinda guy with just the tiniest hint of underlying menace while talking to "Uncle Peter". 'Course, then he blew up 200,000 people, but hey, it happens.

And making Sylar likeable was a pretty wrenching mind f..., well, you know what I mean.

I'll say this for this episode-love it or hate it, its generating a lot of commentary here!

 

[JD]

I think at this point, if season 4 is greenlit, it's a wonderful oppurtunity to do what they were originally going to do at the end of season 1 and recast from top to bottom. Here's my suggestion. First, wipe the slate clean. With the exception of Noah, everyone else and anything related to it like the Company goes bye bye. Kill 'em off, de-power them, or make them go into hiding. This crowd had its chance. Next, recast the show with people with new abilities that aren't so godlike like time travel and immortality and set limitations on those powers (e.g. Someone with mental abilites suffers from crippling migranes as a result of using them and so forth). And right from the get go, start splitting them up in factions of good and evil, with Noah assuming the role that I thought Mohinder was going have as the non-powered character to help the Heroes understand their abilites. And have some powerful corporate Luthor-esque figure controlling the Villans and have his plans that extend beyond just blowing up a city. Have the Heroes and Villans coordinate skirmishes with each other throughout the season, with the obligatory character growth and development that is associated in a team enviornment. It would then culminate in a no holds barred two hour finale with the fate of humanity at stake. This is just an idea of course. It's not that hard to make this show what it coud be.

I see no reason why we couldn't do what you want with the characters we have right now. Sure it might take a little tweaking, but I see it as entirely possible.

As for the whole, it's repeating the same formula again thing, I say so what. Yeah, they are still trying to stop a bad future from happening, but the future is different, the causes of the future are different, and the effect it could have is different. Also we do have different individual storylines going on for each character, like Mohinder and his formula, Claire deciding to go after villains, Tracy investigating her past, Nathan doing his thing. None of that stuff happened last season or the season before, did it? We are also getting new characters that haven't been in the past seasons, like Daphne, Knox, Jesse, The German, Tracy (yeah, it's still Ali Larter but she is clearly a different character) Now, I can understand people getting annoyed that they have done future episodes each season, but personally, I like being able to see what exactly it is that the Heroes are trying to stop.

 

[IJD GAF]

I don't think they're making Sylar a "good guy" any more than Magneto was in X-2. It's a shades of gray kind of deal. And I would be willing to bet, dollars to donuts, that all this "Sylar is a nice boy" crap is just a ruse, trying to make us like him more before they pull the rug out and have him fuck everyone over. Again.

It's shading. It's making a more complicated character. And I highly doubt it's permanent.

 

[JD]

Do any of you guys remember if he was with the Villains in Angela's dream? Because if so, then it might be point to him still being bad.

 

[Captain Craig]

BTW, the questions I'm surprised nobody has asked is: Where's the Irish girl Peter lost in the future last season? Where's Monica, Micah's cousin?

I actually asked both of those in the thread for 3x1 & 3x2.

I don't doubt you.

I actually asked both of those in the thread for 3x1 & 3x2.

I don't doubt you.

Sorry Craig, I don't post as often as I used too, so I guess I missed it.

If I wasn't so uber unmotivated at work I wouldn't do this but here was my post in that thread. Thanks for taking me at my word anyway though.

 

[Mistral]

Do any of you guys remember if he was with the Villains in Angela's dream? Because if so, then it might be point to him still being bad.

He was in the dream. And, alluding to your last post-I dig that stuff too. I'm a time-travel/alternate history nut so I'm digging this and I think the best part is trying to "re-set" my mind and try to figure out the "new" logical chain of events. That's at least half the fun. The other half is little scenes like Peter walking into the Bennet house with his hands engulfed in blue flames and stuff like that-finally, all the crap that was put in my head reading comic books has visual expression!

Ok Craig-read it. Hmm, Peter/scar was outside of his own timestream, apperntly-that might explain his continued existence. Also, Peter's interaction with the old black guy before he died bears some scrutiny re:displacing souls. That's all I got for ya.

 

[JD]

I just found a description of Angela's dream on the Heroes wiki, and apparently all Sylar did was walk up to her from behind, apparently to help her. So I guess that doesn't help us.

EDIT: Yeah, the blue flames are a pretty sweet effect. Same goes for Ando's red energy blast, that was cool too.

 

[3D Master]

I really don't get why people seem so suprised and upset with Sylar possibly becoming a good guy, this always happens whenever a villain becomes popular, just look at Spike from Buffy. Honestly I've been expecting this to happen ever since Sylar started becoming popular.

Always? That's also about the only time on tv it ever happened, and the most horrible reason "not to get upset". Spike "turning good" (but not really), turned Buffy from one of the best tv shows on the air, to a show where I literally had to fight to keep myself from throwing up. (And no, that is NOT an exaggeration, or a metaphor.)

The "Spikeification" of Sylar as someone else already called it, is WHY it's so horrible. Spike is the very example of why you should NEVER do it, and why I will quit watching this pile of junk. Because if Spike is anything to go by... well, we'll be trying to keep in our lunches and dinners before this show is through.

 

[JD]

When I was talking about villains being turned good, I didn't specifically mean in TV, I just mean in general. It happens constantly in comic books, just look at Emma Frost, Rouge, Mystique, I know there are others in other series, I'm just most familiar with X-Men's history and characters.
Edit: It's also happened in the Star Wars books, with Pellaeon, Mara, and probably others I'm not aware of.

 

[3D Master]

When I was talking about villains being turned good, I didn't specifically mean in TV, I just mean in general. It happens constantly in comic books, just look at Emma Frost, Rouge, Mystique, I know there are others in other series, I'm just most familiar with X-Men's history and characters.
Edit: It's also happened in the Star Wars books, with Pellaeon, Mara, and probably others I'm not aware of.

Yeah, and all of those "villains" are people with good traits and bad traits, that did the things they did for reasons, some misguided, some even tricked. Thing is though, NONE of them, are remorseless, cold-blooded, killing machines. None of them, were ever true evil. That's one of the things about comic book, and especially Marvel story telling. Most of their "villains" have very good reasons for being like they are, people that if history had gone different, and they'd won, may very well have them revered as freedom fighters and such.

However, find in Marvel, though, a TRUE villain, a person doing evil purely and simply for his own selfish gains, without any extenuating circumstances, someone truly evil, and you'll find no matter how popular they get, they never get turned good.

That's for multiple reasons. One, is that it's just plain bad, if not downright disgusting writing. But two, is that the writers know, they're popular as VILLAINS, and as sudden good guys, they'd no longer be popular, hell, it'd make people drop the books. When people like people as villains, they like them BECAUSE they are villains, and want to continue seeing the VILLAIN, not neutered sweety sweety.

Sylar is exactly that category, a true villain, EVIL down to the core of his existence. And THAT is why people like him, and what people like more of. Making him into "booboo, I can't control my hunger", makes him a wimp, a victim, and decidedly NOT why people like him so much. It'll have viewers running for the hills fast, and them asking, "Remember when Heroes was good?"

"Yeah, when Sylar was still that magnificent, evil bastard. Now he's just pathetic, and the rest of the episodes is just S1 and S2 repeated, and not good anyway."

I don't think they're making Sylar a "good guy" any more than Magneto was in X-2. It's a shades of gray kind of deal. And I would be willing to bet, dollars to donuts, that all this "Sylar is a nice boy" crap is just a ruse, trying to make us like him more before they pull the rug out and have him fuck everyone over. Again.

It's shading. It's making a more complicated character. And I highly doubt it's permanent.

No, it isn't a ruse. We've seen him in the future. He is a nice boy. And the thing is, that we've been shown this, and with Peter we've been shown, it's NOT his fault. It's the power, and the side effects of it. It's not Sylar we see killing people, it's "booboo, I can't control the hunger".

From now on, whenever we see the character played by Zachary Quinto kill someone, it'll be Booboo that's doing the crime. Remember that; Booboo, Booboo will be killing people, and no one else. I have no interest in watching Booboo. I want to see Sylar.

 

[FALCONX0N]

True, the villian-turning-good thing is a super hero comic staple- -exactly how many times has Magneto taught at the X-Mansion? Not to mention that Noah was the original villain "face of evil" on the show, and his sheer cool factor made him into a white hat- -but with Sylar...I don't know. He was such a complex and damaged bad guy that I hate to have it shown that it was just nature that made him that way- -not a combination of having an apparently-useless superpower and a neurotic, stifled upbringing. Yeah, sure, there are some serial killers that are just, y'know, serial killers- -and if we get backstory saying Sylar has that kind of past (killing animals as a kid, that sort of thing), then I'm all for it. I just liked how the powers+personality mixed to create a kind of really messed up psychopath.

Like, the new guy on the block, whatever his name is- -Knox?- -who gets more and more powerful when people are afraid of him. What a metaphor- -how can that power give a guy ANYTHING but supervillainy as a career path? You'd have to have Batman-level self control to use that for good. GOing back farther, even The Shadow was a black hat at some point- -fear based powers lead to corruption, because of the charge people get from it. That's a neat way to tie the powers together. Sylar's power of intuitive aptitude+crazed desire to be super+neurosis about being normal+having it shown that he is special, but then yanked away from him=Serial Killer.

The new equation is just Intuitive Aptitude=Serial killer. Meeeeh, rubs me the wrong way. But after reading this thread, I had a thought- -maybe it's supposed to. After all, Peter looked horrified at what he'd done...maybe...just maybe...the writers are taking us for a ride.

I mean, I coined in the Spikeification of Sylar, but it wasn't a direct analogy so much as a reference to tvtropes.org- -but I think I'm gonna withhold my comments on the Gabriel Gray front, at least for a while. See, I had a thought- -the prevailing mindset that I have about Sylar turning good, like what I hear a lot, is that I think that the writer's are going: "Zach Quinto is the biggest Non-McDowal star on this show...he's starring in a Paramount tentpole feature next summer...shit, we NEED to keep him on the show. If he keeps being evil, we'll have to kill 'em off, or make him useless- -both would suck- -I know, make 'em a good guy!" ...Thing is, there are plenty of ways to turn him good, plenty of gut-wrenching, dramatic opertunities contained therein. Instead, we're getting this seemingly shoehorned in "Sylar is the third Summers brother!" storyline.

But I'm gonna buy into it. Maybe it isn't faulty writing...Heroes has always been predictable-but-good. Or as it was put to me, predictable-except-when-you-want-it-to-be. This season, though, has been going at a mile a minute, and I'm not sure what direction they're taking it in. They can't possibly be...flipping everything on it's head, and...Suddenly, I realize that this is a good thing.

So until the end of the season- -at least until the end of the Villains arc- -I swear not to say a word about Sylar being a good guy. I'm adopting an official 'wait and see until all the chips are cashed' policy. Even if last night was the last we see of it- -or if the next episode details how Sylar and Noah crash vegas and accidentally marry some strippers- -I'm just going to hold off and see if or how Sylar's being manipulated, or is manipulating everyone, and how it plays out.

At least, that's the story I'm sticking to for this week, anyways...

 

[mimic]

My main problem is I'm rooting for the 'bad' guys. Knox is my favorite now, just because he played a different character in a show I really miss. They'd better not kill him off - everyone else may die, however.

And I really hate the time jumps. Characters are completely different, often revealing how weak the actors/actresses really are and you know it's all going to be reset at some point, so it's hard to care much at all about what happens in future scenes.

 

[Darth_Daver]

Weaker than last week, no Bennet is a definite minus. The reformed Sylar scenes were cool, it's nice to see Adam back, everything else was a big meh. Average for me.

 

[A Clockwork Lim]

I don't doubt you. Say, has anyone taken into account what Parkman's father is capable of? He told Parkman that the whole illusionary reality he trapped him in was just a small part of what they can do. How much of what's going on is the old man manipulating (someone's) reality? Think about it for a minute-it would explain just about anything the writers want to explain.

I'm sure if they end up going the Dallas or St. Elsewhere route, it'll go over about as well as it did with those two shows.

And as a general question: Did some of you guys actually even watch the show? A lot of the questions and bewilderment were plainly and obviously answered during the course of it. No, Peter wasn't ripping open Nathan's skull to learn his power, he was trying to figure out how Nathan could think his plan was the right course of action. No, Peter didn't need Sylar's power to learn other powers, FuturePeter wanted him to get it so he could see the problem with the timeline and repair it. Yes, the Haitian was there when FuturePeter died.

There wasn't anything even remotely confusing about any of those points if you were watching the show. It was plainly and obviously told to you, if not directly by someone saying them then by actually seeing it with your own two eyes.

 

[A Clockwork Lim]

Weaker than last week, no Bennet is a definite minus. The reformed Sylar scenes were cool, it's nice to see Adam back, everything else was a big meh. Average for me.

I don't know, I think that may have been Noah Bennett that we saw. With all these people having the ability to travel through time, it's not hard to imagine someone having the ability to regress aging. Considering the seeds are there for Noah to help redeem Sylar, it's not completely out of character for him to offer to take regressed Noah into his care in thanks for doing so.

Considering little Noah didn't look anything like Sylar but had more than a passing similarity to Bennett, I don't think it's too much of a stretch. It's certainly something they can (and plan to) touch upon later in the series.

I also think Stranded Irish Chick could still be in the story somehow. We don't know if temporally displaced people get whisked out of existence if the timeline changes. And if she does survive and sees all these myriad timelines change around her, it could make for a very interesting character. Especially since she'd be pissed at Peter, would be at least passingly familiar with his abilities, and would have had to have survived all that. Plus she's Irish. They're not known for being all rosy and happy people.

 

[Mistral]

I'm sure if they end up going the Dallas or St. Elsewhere route, it'll go over about as well as it did with those two shows.

And as a general question: Did some of you guys actually even watch the show? A lot of the questions and bewilderment were plainly and obviously answered during the course of it. No, Peter wasn't ripping open Nathan's skull to learn his power, he was trying to figure out how Nathan could think his plan was the right course of action. No, Peter didn't need Sylar's power to learn other powers, FuturePeter wanted him to get it so he could see the problem with the timeline and repair it. Yes, the Haitian was there when FuturePeter died.

There wasn't anything even remotely confusing about any of those points if you were watching the show. It was plainly and obviously told to you, if not directly by someone saying them then by actually seeing it with your own two eyes.

um, you quoted wrong. I sorta suggested that thing about Parkman's dad-just in case anything comes of it.

I thought the whole story was crystal-clear, no confusion here. But I did have to explain some of what happened to my wife. I guess its all about how you are trained to think. I was trained by Arthur Canon Doyle, Asimov, Heinlein and a few(!) other like minds, so no problem following what was going on.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sweet Jeebus! You're a time traveller!?

The real question, is, where is Babs, and is Nathan going to go for the hat-trick like Woody Allen did with Hannah and her Sisters?

 

[JD]

So until the end of the season- -at least until the end of the Villains arc- -I swear not to say a word about Sylar being a good guy. I'm adopting an official 'wait and see until all the chips are cashed' policy. Even if last night was the last we see of it- -or if the next episode details how Sylar and Noah crash vegas and accidentally marry some strippers- -I'm just going to hold off and see if or how Sylar's being manipulated, or is manipulating everyone, and how it plays out.

I wish more people would do this when it comes to serialized shows like Heroes, and Lost. I don't know how many times now I've seen people bitch about something not making sense, or having nothing to do with the storyline, only for it to all be explained or connected within the next coulple of episodes. As for Heroes, I really think we're to early in the season to start getting worked up about stuff, there are hopefully still 18 - 20 episodes left in the season for things to be explaind or connected or whatever.

 

[Gertch]

Notice how the house is decorated all bright & cheerful like it's designed to keep a child happy, almost like a dolls house. I think he's taking care of him as some attonement for something. I think naming him "Noah" is a clue. Noah & Sylar are partners and I think something goes very wrong that makes Sylar repent.

Good to see one of your posts again. Been a while. This is what I thought as well. Plus, the glasses look so much like Noah's also.

 

[Mallet]

The writers really have to do something to get rid of all the Time Travel in this show, because as long as you have characters that can travel in time nothing that happens matters. Anyone can be saved. Any event can be changed.

We've seen this "dark future" stuff way to much for just 2 1/2 seasons of a series.

The best way to "fix" Heroes is to get rid of all the time travel. Painting the future is fine, traveling to and from the future (and the past) again & again & again is lame (especially after it was done so well during the first season).

And whatever fix they are going to do for this show, they better do it quick. The ratings this week were at an all time low for the series. It did the same as "How I met your Mother", a show that cost probably a 1/10 of what "Heroes" cost to make & has almost no advertising or extra promotional costs like "Heroes" has. So it's not going to be very long before NBC forces major changes to the series, or just pulls the plug on it altogether.