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Help Me Understand TWOK!!! PLEASE!!!!

For me the movie was ruined when Kirk ... ate an apple, and I don't think he washed it! Oh my God! Now I can never watch Star Trek again!!!:rolleyes:

I know you typed it, but you do realize it was Kirk, not Picard? However, I agree that Picard would feel the need to wash an apple.
 
If Meyer didn't want to set up the sequel, why was "remember!" included then?
The way Bennett tells it, he suggested Nimoy come up with some bit of business that left the door open.

I also remember that Nimoy was very PO'd about the insert shot used, since the hand position wasn't properly Vulcan.
 
Added to that, Spock and Kirk served together, in a very close capacity for years. You don't think in all that time Spock wouldn't ever have mentioned it, not even once? All those away missions, all those beam-downs, all those situations where death was nearly certain and Spock never once asked Kirk, even as an aside, to return his body to Vulcan should he ever die?

This is the comment I was referencing. I wasn't talking about anything that you wrote. The part about cannon, well that was my attempt at dry humor...maybe it was a bit too dry.
As far as your point on Kansas, however, I still think you are on the wrong path. Seeing as how Spock says in TSFS, "why did you leave me on Genesis," how can you argue that his last will and testament would have said that he wanted to be shot out of the ship in a torpedo?
If a sailor died and was buried at sea, but then somehow came back to life and said, "why did you dump my body in the sea," wouldn't you be able to assume that his wishes never were to be buried at sea.
SO, if you ties these all together: spock saying "remember" to bones and "why did you leave me on Genesis" the argument that he wanted to be "buried" the way he was in null and void, and we are left like we started, with a contrived ending to a good film...not that there is anything wrong with that.
 
Seeing as how Spock says in TSFS, "why did you leave me on Genesis," how can you argue that his last will and testament would have said that he wanted to be shot out of the ship in a torpedo?

I'd argue that Spock before his death wanted to be buried in space; Spock after his death realized that he had been wrong all along, his father had been right, and all that Vulcan religious mumbo-jumbo he had hated his whole halfbreed life had in fact been a pretty good approximation of how the universe was put together...

Or at least Spock's haunting katra had the latter sort of interests. Perhaps anybody's katra would. But katra ain't necessarily what Spock's mind consisted of. Katra could have been the silently nagging irrational devil that Spock's rational mind kept suppressed, and with Spock gone, the katra would naturally start to express silly survivalist opinions. Most katras don't get that chance; most resign to the fact that they aren't gonna survive, that they have in fact ceased to survive some time ago already.

Had Spock been alive, he'd probably have argued down his silly katra. Then again, Spock's body being alive and in possible telepathic contact with his katra may have been the very reason the katra expressed these wishes that were contrary to Spock's rational wishes.

Mind you, "remember" only refers to Spock's wish to leave behind a memory of himself to be carried to Vulcan. There is no rational reason Spock's rotting corpse should have been carried to Vulcan, too. Sarek didn't want or expect that, either; he would have been perfectly happy with fishing out Spock's katra from Kirk's head.

It was only the unique situation of the dead Spock in fact being bodily alive that created the unique need to get Spock's body to Vulcan, probably against all custom.

Timo Saloniemi
 
you have finally come up with a somewhat satisfactory explanation. thanks! i can enjoy the film more now...however, i still think that the tube shot at the end of TWOK should have been left out.
 
KingofPop: Dude, that one scene ruined it for you? Not that Khan knew Chekov, who he never met onscreen? Or that Saavik had the wrong kind of eyebrows, being half-Vulcan? Or any number of scenes that don't add up? I kid you. Try using your imagination. Spock's last wishes for his body may have been to have his remains burned in the atmosphere of a planet. And in the next movie, they explained how the tube didn't burn up in the atmosphere, albeit clumsily, as it "soft-landed." Shatmandu is right, don't ever watch the movie again! Nuff said! -- RR
 
For me the movie was ruined when Kirk ... ate an apple, and I don't think he washed it! Oh my God! Now I can never watch Star Trek again!!!:rolleyes:

I know you typed it, but you do realize it was Kirk, not Picard? However, I agree that Picard would feel the need to wash an apple.

Kirk's a farmboy -- he's probably used to eating apples off trees, while watching for the stray worm inside! -- RR
 
If Meyer didn't want to set up the sequel, why was "remember!" included then?

I've read that the "remember" scene was not in the original cut. It was added at the same the time the tube on Genesis scene was added after the first screening. Meyer had nothing to do with the "remember" scene.
 
That's correct. It, and the tube on the planet bit, were added after production was wrapped. Nick Meyer didn't want them in the movie at all.

Oh and Red Green! Awesome!
 
Mind you, "remember" only refers to Spock's wish to leave behind a memory of himself to be carried to Vulcan.
Based on what? Did we ever see Spock give that explanation? True, he couldn't have expected that his body would have been regenerated on the Genesis planet, but why do you assume that he rejected all the religious katra 'mumbo jumbo' and just wanted a memory of himself to be returned to Vulcan? Why isn't it equally likely that he accepted the concept of the katra and was purposely transferring it to McCoy. Sarek himself said that what Spock did was 'the Vulcan way when the body's end is near.' Seems to me he was following Vulcan custom pretty much to the letter.
 
I don't see the argument here. I claimed that Spock only deposited material in McCoy for the purpose of storing that material until it could reach Vulcan and his father - not for the purpose of living forever. That's the usual Vulcan custom, and that's what Sarek was expecting, until the once-in-an-aeon opportunity rose for reanimating Spock. A Vulcan's katra is only "a memory of himself", unless there are very special circumstances.

So where's the disagreement?

Timo Saloniemi
 
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