Help Me Understand TWOK!!! PLEASE!!!!
- Thread starter KingOfPop
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Nicholas Meyer, in the commentary, says that he fought against that last bit with the shot of the tube on the planet. As far as he was concerned, when he finished actually shooting the movie, the scene of the tube heading towards the planet was it. End of movie. No shot of the Genesis Planet foliage, no tube, nothing.
He also says that his vision for the movie was very naval in a lot of respects. The "submarine battle" between Enterprise and Reliant, the "burial at sea", even the way that Saavik is referred to as Mister, very naval. That was his thinking as the director anyway.
He also says that his vision for the movie was very naval in a lot of respects. The "submarine battle" between Enterprise and Reliant, the "burial at sea", even the way that Saavik is referred to as Mister, very naval. That was his thinking as the director anyway.
Oh, and the official line on Khan recognizing Chekov is that Chekov was on board the Enterprise in season 1 but wasn't on-screen. Khan ran into him in the men's room or something...
What I find interesting about the whole "burial in space" thing and the subsequent story about returning Spock to Vulcan is the idea that if, even in normal circumstances, the return of Vulcan bodies to Vulcan is so important to their society, they would have never mentioned this to Starfleet.
We know that there are many Vulcans serving in Starfleet. The U.S.S. Intrepid even had a crew of Vulcans. Why, then, would not the Vulcan government have made Starfleet aware of their burial customs?
We know that there are many Vulcans serving in Starfleet. The U.S.S. Intrepid even had a crew of Vulcans. Why, then, would not the Vulcan government have made Starfleet aware of their burial customs?
^It would be pretty racist of Starfleet to assume that every member of a given species must follow the exact same burial customs. After all, humans have many different burial customs, so why should Vulcans be any different? Most likely it's a matter of what preferences the individual has on file. For all we know, Sarek's personal beliefs about burial customs differed from Spock's. After all, they disagreed about a whole lot of other things.
Frankly? I think the movie could have done without the tube being shown on the surface of Genesis. If anything leaving it open to "maybe/maybe not" would have gave the reveal of it soft landing on the planet a lot more punch. As is, it's more of a "well duh" moment.
Added to that, Spock and Kirk served together, in a very close capacity for years. You don't think in all that time Spock wouldn't ever have mentioned it, not even once? All those away missions, all those beam-downs, all those situations where death was nearly certain and Spock never once asked Kirk, even as an aside, to return his body to Vulcan should he ever die?
Actually, I'd think Spock would specifically ask NOT to be returned to Vulcan under any circumstances.
After all, Spock was a rebel and an outcast, at odds with his father, at odds with the Vulcan Science Academy, at odds with the traditions of his homeworld. He had gained nothing but bitterness from his misadventure with his bride in "Amok Time". And while "Journey to Babel" had offered an opportunity for reconciliation with his father, the moment of true rapport only came in ST4, which was still in the future when Spock died for the first time.
Timo Saloniemi
After all, Spock was a rebel and an outcast, at odds with his father, at odds with the Vulcan Science Academy, at odds with the traditions of his homeworld. He had gained nothing but bitterness from his misadventure with his bride in "Amok Time". And while "Journey to Babel" had offered an opportunity for reconciliation with his father, the moment of true rapport only came in ST4, which was still in the future when Spock died for the first time.
Timo Saloniemi
And Spock, in particular, is usually portrayed as having a lot of fundamental differences of opinion with his father. Yes, ST does tend to oversimplify cultures, but not to such an absolute and literal degree that it would make sense for Starfleet to base its burial protocols on the policies of alien governments rather than the last wills and testaments of individual crewmembers.
I agree with Meyer that the torpedo tube on the planet shouldn't have been included. As already mentioned, the whole film was an allegory to submarine/naval battles, and the "burial at sea" would have been a perfect end. They said that it was "too downbeat an ending", well life isn't like Hollywood and we don't always have a happy ending, the Leonard Nimoy "Space, the final frontier..." would have been uplifting enough for me - kind of a nod to the fact that one death does not stop the onward march of life.
However, all that said, one scene (shot) at the end of the movie is not enough to spoil my enjoyment of it as a whole.
However, all that said, one scene (shot) at the end of the movie is not enough to spoil my enjoyment of it as a whole.
Um everyone saying how Spock probably wanted to be buried in space are forgetting one thing.
In Star Trek 3 Spock's katra possessed McCoy asked Kirk "Why did you leave me on Genesis?" or something like that.
In Star Trek 3 Spock's katra possessed McCoy asked Kirk "Why did you leave me on Genesis?" or something like that.
Okay, then, new theory: the Enterprise's stasis tubes were damaged in the battle, so they couldn't preserve his body properly and had to fall back on a space burial regardless of his professed wishes.
There was an old fan rumor/theory running around back in the day (I think it was reprinted in one of the Best of Trek books) that Kirk fired the torp into Genesis thinking/knowing/hoping Spock would be regenerated.
See I don't get the whole "downer ending". Yeah Spock's dead, but we have the bridge scene with everyone watching on as a new planet is born and Kirk saying he feels young. It's not a total downer ending so much that they had to short-sheet Spock's death.
Yeah, but can you really trust that? Was that Spock, McCoy or some weird ass glitch?
See I don't get the whole "downer ending". Yeah Spock's dead, but we have the bridge scene with everyone watching on as a new planet is born and Kirk saying he feels young. It's not a total downer ending so much that they had to short-sheet Spock's death.
If Meyer didn't want to set up the sequel, why was "remember!" included then?
Wasn't that Nimoy's idea?
That's what I mean. In a way it's quite uplifting that life goes on.
Wasn't "remember" added in TSFS? I can't remember (no pun) seeing it in TWOK. They had to have a security file focus on and pick it out in TSFS to figure out what had happened to Spocks katra.
Well I am glad to see that my first forum on this board has gotten a lot of people talking, thinking, and having a good time. I see that this board can be very sarcastic at time, and I like it.
I would say that while everyone (for the most part) has made valid points, those people that are throwing around words like "racist" really need to relax. I don't think Kirk would have been acting in a racist way, or thinking about the vulcans in a "monolithic" fashion if he would simply have put in a call to Vulcan in order to see what the proper way to handle the situation was. The screenwriters could have thrown in a line or two to handle this. Also, as noted earlier, Spock passing on his memories to Bones and saying "remember" would seem to go against all of the posts saying that Spock JUST MUST have mentioned to Kirk that he wanted to be "buried at sea" in some other part of their life that wasn't filmed. Does that make it CANNON? Anyway, the ending still seems forced to me, but I will still continue to watch and enjoy Star Trek. I will not take the advice that has been given to never ever watch Star Trek again. Thats a bit much.
I would say that while everyone (for the most part) has made valid points, those people that are throwing around words like "racist" really need to relax. I don't think Kirk would have been acting in a racist way, or thinking about the vulcans in a "monolithic" fashion if he would simply have put in a call to Vulcan in order to see what the proper way to handle the situation was. The screenwriters could have thrown in a line or two to handle this. Also, as noted earlier, Spock passing on his memories to Bones and saying "remember" would seem to go against all of the posts saying that Spock JUST MUST have mentioned to Kirk that he wanted to be "buried at sea" in some other part of their life that wasn't filmed. Does that make it CANNON? Anyway, the ending still seems forced to me, but I will still continue to watch and enjoy Star Trek. I will not take the advice that has been given to never ever watch Star Trek again. Thats a bit much.
No, it was in TWOK, and the "security file" from TSFS was stock footage from TWOK.
But why should "Vulcan" know what an individual Vulcan's burial preferences were? Let's say you're the captain of a US Navy carrier and a crewmember from Kansas dies. What do you do? Do you call the governor of Kansas and ask, "What funeral customs do the people of Kansas observe?" Of course not! That would be ridiculous! People in Kansas no doubt belong to many different faiths and traditions, and no government official could validly make an assumption about what any given citizen of the state would prefer. Funeral customs are a matter of personal belief, not government mandate.
"Just mentioned to Kirk?" What? I'm talking about keeping a formal last will and testament. It would presumably be standard practice for any member of the military, given the risks of the service, to create a written record of their preferences for the disposition of their remains and property upon their death. It's just common sense that any Starfleet officer would have a will on file.
What does canon have to do with anything? The canon is what's onscreen, nothing more. This conversation is about speculating about the reasons underlying the events onscreen. Obviously any speculations are merely that, and nobody's claiming otherwise.
