QFFT! The fanatics conveniently forget that Star Trek is a business venture for Paramount. Profit will motivate them to do more. Breaking even or loss will keep Star Trek as dead as it was when they announced this movie project.
I agree. They are avoiding the word reboot with good cause. Some people have been trying to pigeon-hole this movie into a category before it has been seen by the public. Paramount and JJ Abrams & Company will present their project they way they want. Either we go see it or we don't.
How so? I've seen every episode and movie of every iteration of Trek more than once (TOS is in the dozens per episode, if not not more, in the past 35 years) and I don't think it's important. I also own about 80 novels, about 100 comics, all ten movies and Season 1 on HD DVD. Are you even thinking of suggesting I'm not "a fan"?
Because, well, they ARE trivial. It's entertainment, not a religion.
And I feel that people with an attitude like that are condescending little asswipes who think they have some special "hold" on what "true fandom" means. Guess what. YOU don't get to decide who IS and IS NOT a fan. You simply don't. The ONLY person who gets to decide is the individual in question based on whatever criteria deemed important to that individual. YOU don't get a vote on whether I (or J. Allen or anyone else) is a fan. Tough shit. Deal with it. You are perfectly entitled to whatever level of traumatic pain you think this new film will inflict upon you but you have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to decide who is a fan. There are no forms to fill out, no pre-requisites, no age requirements, no minimum viewing hours, no mimimum ownership of Trek related items, no requirement to like and/or hate specific series/episodes/movies, no obligation to worship at the altar of a hypothetical "canon" that was never as consistent as its fundamentalist followers believe it to be. Maybe some think there should be such requirements (such people need to seek psychiatric care) but they don't exist.
And, once again, just to be sure you understand--YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHETHER SOMEONE ELSE'S LEVEL OF COMMITMENT OR ENGAGEMENT WITH A FICTIONAL ENTERTAINMENT FRANCHISE IS "WORTHY OF CONSIDERATION".
I can't speak for anyone else, but as a long time fan I want to see this franchise do well. Often, franchises do this through reinvention. Like it or not, almost everything that has come after TOS reinvented Trek in its own way. The movies took us away from the 60's-esque tone of the show, DS9 was set on an alien space station, Voyager took us out of familiar Starfleet territory etc. I grant the success of these various reinventions can be debated, but fact is Trek has always been about reinventing itself.
Yeah we do, we know plenty about Kirk and Spock at least. We know Kirk was a lot more serious in his academy days and into his early years as an officer. We know that he was bullied by an upperclassman cadet. We know he served on at least one ship before being posted to Enterprise. We know Spock was bullied as a child for being half-human, we know he always had issues with his father, like wandering off into the mountains whenever he felt like it, and later by joining Starfleet. We know that Spock and Sarek hadn't spoken to each other since he joined Starfleet until The Journey to Babel. We know that it was always seen as an unusual thing to see Spock act anything other than his normal, logical self, which is how it was so easy to spot when something was wrong with him. We know Scotty served on other ships as an engineer, and that Enterprise was the first ship he served as the chief engineer.
That might be true with some, but I'm way more upset about the flagrant changes that have been made with things that actually have been established because Abrams thinks it will be more interesting that way.
Let's see - no Flannigan, no marriage as mentioned by Mitchell, already a maverick in the academy, no Farragut, going right from cadet to captain... Not to mention the way shit looks now. So, yeah, there's plenty being contradicted here.
Yes, it's a tired old plot device known as the reset button.
They do to me.
Go watch Star Wars (and I actually am a fan of the OT, BTW).
Also known as a butchered version of the original.
No, no it won't, just like the new ship doesn't resemble the old one by that much either.
Because past mistakes always excuse making more of the same mistakes again...
Not really all that easy or practical from an engineering standpoint.
Yes, it is, but that doesn't matter since this is supposed to be a stand-in for the TOS version. I thought the TMP refit was stretching the willing disbelief factor beyond the breaking point as it was, even if I did like the design better.
Since he seems insistent on having it referred to as only "Star Trek" and not by number or subtitle, it seems like he intends this to take the place of the original - in other words a reboot. Reintroducing the characters a different way is exactly what's been done in other recent franchise reboots.
I'm not even particularly sold on the plot, which sounds a lot like a run-of-the-mill time travel/TCW episode B&B might've done themselves. Hell, judging by what I've seen, it looks like he's still made it to be plenty silly and corny despite all his poking fun at TOS for being silly and corny.
So don't.
Some people might, but I'd still be leery. After all, Final Fantasy looked bloody awesome but still lacked plot-wise. I also don't get why some people seem to think you either have to change everything or change nothing. I mean, it's not like we have the capability of making the original design more detailed so it would look more like it was made of metal, or like we could update the original interiors to look more realistic without making it look like it was built by Apple. Oh, wait, yeah we could, especially with $150 million budget. Oh, I'd also ditch the miniskirt uniforms, personally.
I'm totally cool with the casting, and I think I've made it really clear that I wouldn't want it to look like TOS remastered either.
Does to me.
I won't, I'll view it in the same light as ST5, or most of VOY and ENT for that matter. But to each his own.
But it makes me less of a fan for not having a fan-gasm over this movie, right?
Yeah, a show should never be rational or serious.
Was what, exactly? Aside from a formulaic rehash of everything that'd come before it? Past mistakes aren't an excuse. If anything, making the same mistakes over again makes it even worse, let alone knowingly contradicting something that's been established just so you can try to make it look "kewl".
...Paramount and JJ Abrams & Company will present their project they way they want. Either we go see it or we don't.
I will be there when it opens with an optimistic excitement. My currency is my vote.
). WE support them and give them OUR money. WE are the ones they should be aiming to please, and they've forgotten that. 
Okay how about Tomorrow is Yesterday, you don't think that may have had a ripple effect in time? Or The Voyage home where they brought two whales and a 20th century earth female into the future, Who knows that woman could have been Carol Marcus' great great grandmother? Did Kirk Check, no, he didn't want to take her but she manage to go anyway. Nobody saw if they sent her back. Or first contact with all the borg and other shit that came from the 24th century don't you think in their battle with the borg they may have been just a little sloppy? Even when granted when Sisco and Dax went back in Trials and Tribulations that could have been before any mucking with time. it seems Trek Fans keep whatever canon fits their personal beliefs of what happened and chuck anything that they care not to use. Canon doesn't work that way either it all happened or NONE OF IT HAPPENED. You've got a serious Temporal Damage to the Trek Timeline that not even the Galliferians could sort out.Yeah we do, we know plenty about Kirk and Spock at least. We know Kirk was a lot more serious in his academy days and into his early years as an officer. We know that he was bullied by an upperclassman cadet. We know he served on at least one ship before being posted to Enterprise. We know Spock was bullied as a child for being half-human, we know he always had issues with his father, like wandering off into the mountains whenever he felt like it, and later by joining Starfleet. We know that Spock and Sarek hadn't spoken to each other since he joined Starfleet until The Journey to Babel. We know that it was always seen as an unusual thing to see Spock act anything other than his normal, logical self, which is how it was so easy to spot when something was wrong with him. We know Scotty served on other ships as an engineer, and that Enterprise was the first ship he served as the chief engineer.
That might be true with some, but I'm way more upset about the flagrant changes that have been made with things that actually have been established because Abrams thinks it will be more interesting that way.
Let's see - no Flannigan, no marriage as mentioned by Mitchell, already a maverick in the academy, no Farragut, going right from cadet to captain... Not to mention the way shit looks now. So, yeah, there's plenty being contradicted here.
Yes, it's a tired old plot device known as the reset button.
They do to me.
Go watch Star Wars (and I actually am a fan of the OT, BTW).
Also known as a butchered version of the original.
No, no it won't, just like the new ship doesn't resemble the old one by that much either.
Because past mistakes always excuse making more of the same mistakes again...
Not really all that easy or practical from an engineering standpoint.
Yes, it is, but that doesn't matter since this is supposed to be a stand-in for the TOS version. I thought the TMP refit was stretching the willing disbelief factor beyond the breaking point as it was, even if I did like the design better.
Since he seems insistent on having it referred to as only "Star Trek" and not by number or subtitle, it seems like he intends this to take the place of the original - in other words a reboot. Reintroducing the characters a different way is exactly what's been done in other recent franchise reboots.
I'm not even particularly sold on the plot, which sounds a lot like a run-of-the-mill time travel/TCW episode B&B might've done themselves. Hell, judging by what I've seen, it looks like he's still made it to be plenty silly and corny despite all his poking fun at TOS for being silly and corny.
So don't.
Some people might, but I'd still be leery. After all, Final Fantasy looked bloody awesome but still lacked plot-wise. I also don't get why some people seem to think you either have to change everything or change nothing. I mean, it's not like we have the capability of making the original design more detailed so it would look more like it was made of metal, or like we could update the original interiors to look more realistic without making it look like it was built by Apple. Oh, wait, yeah we could, especially with $150 million budget. Oh, I'd also ditch the miniskirt uniforms, personally.
I'm totally cool with the casting, and I think I've made it really clear that I wouldn't want it to look like TOS remastered either.
Does to me.
I won't, I'll view it in the same light as ST5, or most of VOY and ENT for that matter. But to each his own.
Because sounding off about elements you don't like about a movie should always make everything serious, of course, as opposed to intellectual or even a little humorous.
But it makes me less of a fan for not having a fan-gasm over this movie, right?
Yeah, a show should never be rational or serious.
Was what, exactly? Aside from a formulaic rehash of everything that'd come before it? Past mistakes aren't an excuse. If anything, making the same mistakes over again makes it even worse, let alone knowingly contradicting something that's been established just so you can try to make it look "kewl".
The episode had a reset button at the end of it, so no.
There was also never any effects shown, other than Earth being saved and having a three whales for a while. It's not like that would cause everything to look different, or for the age difference between characters to be different, or anything else we've seen in the movie or in ENT for that matter.
All that shit that was blown up and should've either remained as debris in orbit or burned up in the atmosphere? Not really. After all, they conveniently forgot to mention their name.
But that's a discussion for another thread, and I've already ranted about it.Except everything they did actually fixed the history that was mucked up. Even the humorless agents they sent to investigate what happened didn't think there was any significant damage to the timeline. And again, nothing that would change the look of mid-23rd century technology, or change how old characters were in relation to each other.
Some do. I don't do that so much as give precedence to the stuff that makes sense and bitch about the stuff that doesn't.
Which is ironic considering that you're essentially rooting for something where none of it happened.
Thank you. Very good post.
It's that extreme to you? There is no gray area? You're either obsess about every little detail, or you're not a Trek fan?
I hate to break it to you, but the franchise has been dying slowly for years now. There are still a lot of fans, but each new incarnation of Trek also alienates a lot of people too. It is perfectly possible to enjoy some aspects of Trek and not others....Paramount and JJ Abrams & Company will present their project they way they want. Either we go see it or we don't.
I will be there when it opens with an optimistic excitement. My currency is my vote.
And you know, that's the worst part about this.
I really WANT to see this film, and I really WANT to enjoy it. I want them to do MORE, even in the altered timeline.
THAT is where the problem comes in.
How do fans who don't like the timeline being altered show Paramount they're not happy? Refuse to go, and so kill the franchise? Refuse to go and deny yourself a FORM of Star Trek to enjoy?
There's no decent solution. Like you said, they're going to do as they like.
THAT is what STINKS about it all.
Again, as "certain people" don't seem to get, WE were the ones who gave them reason to do more stories in this universe (or at least in the multiversal vicinity
They now feel they can do better looking to others to support them, a "general audience".
They figure that we'll just go along for the ride because we'll accept anything with the name STAR TREK on it.
Sad part is, in some ways they're right.
They'd have to know it was there, and they'd have to have the ability to do anything with it. If an f-16 crashed in 18th century America, do you think they'd have been able to make anything out of the charred remains and actually get anything beneficial out of it?
Fans bitching has never really affected anything, beyond bringing Spock back.
Yes, there were changes made between the first and second pilots, and other things that weren't caught. Again, past mistakes do not in any way excuse making the same mistakes again.
I thought and still think it worked to its detriment.
I think that's why Abrams called it silly and corny.
And your point is? Something can look cool but still suck. You can also have a solid plot and fail because it looks like shit.
And part of his character was about how he'd changed as he gained experience.
You're talking about sacrificing existing continuity so you can rehash it to be re-fed to everyone.
I have different expectations for different forms of entertainment. If I want mindless entertainment, I can always watch something like The Fifth Element, or Starship Troopers, or Resident Evil. I'm not the kind of person who plays checkers with a chess set, or who tries to shoot hoops with frisbee.
Gee, really?
Which has what do to with what?
Yeah, because what made it dull and lifeless couldn't have anything to do with, like, being formulaic, cliched, and unimaginative or anything.
Abrams isn't charging admission and when you buy a ticket from the theater you are buying a license to see a produce work. They make no guarantee on the door or on the ticket that you are going to enjoy said work. You can though try and get a refund from the theater, because The money isn't going to Abrams, it's going to Paramount and the Theater, they may reimburse you, they may not, but you take it to court and the judge will laugh you out of there.
It became Formulaic because it had to adhere to certain rules, it had to be such and such a way or the hard core fans got bitchy. It had to remain in the constraints of a certain set of ideals. IT LOST IT'S CREATIVITY TO FAN BELLY-ACHING. The people watching wouldn't LET them be UNCLICHED because they have this mentality of "WHAT TREK IS" (You've seen it over and over again the self-appointed guardians of canon who look to everything that doesn't fit there idea of canon. You see the old guard who don't acknowledge TNG, you see the one who refuse to accept DS9. The people who hate VOY and refuse to see it as trek, and all the people who are anti-enterprise and wish it never came along.) What is Trek??? Trek has always been the optimistic spirit of hope that we can put aside our differences and do anything. It talked about rascism and hate, War and it's uselessness. It tried to move us beyond stereotyping. It was stories about how revenge was pointless, or scheming to get what you want and getting it doesn't always leave you happy. Trek was so much more than it's "CANON" it's set of rules that it became bound to by myopic fans who couldn't see the forest for the trees. When those "rules" got set aside that's when Trek did it's best and had it's best. When it got bogged down in the minutia and the anal retentiveness of it's hard core fan base it was at it's worst. Space Seed was one of the best TOS episodes ever. City on the Edge of forever one if the best of the bunch. Best of Both Worlds a great suspensful two parter. The Wrath of Khan, The Voyage home, The Undiscovered country and First Contact, all great flicks which set Canon aside to tell great stories.They'd have to know it was there, and they'd have to have the ability to do anything with it. If an f-16 crashed in 18th century America, do you think they'd have been able to make anything out of the charred remains and actually get anything beneficial out of it?
Fans bitching has never really affected anything, beyond bringing Spock back.
Yes, there were changes made between the first and second pilots, and other things that weren't caught. Again, past mistakes do not in any way excuse making the same mistakes again.
I thought and still think it worked to its detriment.
I think that's why Abrams called it silly and corny.
And your point is? Something can look cool but still suck. You can also have a solid plot and fail because it looks like shit.
And part of his character was about how he'd changed as he gained experience.
You're talking about sacrificing existing continuity so you can rehash it to be re-fed to everyone.
I have different expectations for different forms of entertainment. If I want mindless entertainment, I can always watch something like The Fifth Element, or Starship Troopers, or Resident Evil. I'm not the kind of person who plays checkers with a chess set, or who tries to shoot hoops with frisbee.
Gee, really?
Which has what do to with what?
Yeah, because what made it dull and lifeless couldn't have anything to do with, like, being formulaic, cliched, and unimaginative or anything.
