:thumbsup:
HDTV ain't so good!!!
- Thread starter Cheapjack
- Start date
^ Great. That's all we need. More purists bitching about the alterations to a 'classic'. 
If it does look good after all, I'd like to see all the Trek films again on HDTV.
When you see them on ordinary DVD, the actors eyes are really obviously pixellated. It's really obvious. Also, the star scenes are jumpy and you can see moire effects around the grillwork on TMP Enterprise and NCC 1701 B.
To tell the truth, I saw Spiderman3 last week in a film theatre and I was disappointed there, too. It was very dim and flickery. I found it hard to suspend my disbelief.
Isn't it true that there's a higher grade of film, too? One less grainy and with a higher frame rate?
It's about time they updated film, too!
When you see them on ordinary DVD, the actors eyes are really obviously pixellated. It's really obvious. Also, the star scenes are jumpy and you can see moire effects around the grillwork on TMP Enterprise and NCC 1701 B.
To tell the truth, I saw Spiderman3 last week in a film theatre and I was disappointed there, too. It was very dim and flickery. I found it hard to suspend my disbelief.
Isn't it true that there's a higher grade of film, too? One less grainy and with a higher frame rate?
It's about time they updated film, too!
^ The *films* can be released in HD (although none of them actually have been, yet). That's not a problem.
It's the TV series that can't be done in HD. Not without redoing all the effects, as I said. This is because all editing was done on videotape, which is impossible to render in HD.
It's the TV series that can't be done in HD. Not without redoing all the effects, as I said. This is because all editing was done on videotape, which is impossible to render in HD.
Babaganoosh said:
Not if they're using cable or satellite. Only over-the-air transmission, i.e. rabbit ears, will be affected. If you have DirecTV, or cable TV, you will never know that anything happened.
They're only doing TOS over again because it *looks bad* in HD. But in TNG, DS9 and VOY's case, it would be, quite literally, impossible to show them in HD.
Would you expect Paramount or whoever is responsible for this, to put forth all the effort for the *other* shows that they're doing now for TOS? It would require a complete re-do of all the special effects for every Trek show ever made (except for Enterprise). That's a lot of work. A LOT. We're talking HUNDREDS of episodes here. Do they really care that much?
Hell, at the current rate of progress, they're years away from finishing the remastering of TOS - and that's just one series. Throw three MORE shows into the mix...have you any idea how long THAT would take? We'd all be grandparents before they finished that sumbitch.
You're uninformed.
TOSR has been scheduled for a two year run, covering all 80 episodes. This means they expect to have them done by that time. The first season is already scheduled for release on high def disc later this year, and they haven't been doing them in season order.
Re-doing the later series? You seem to miss the point. They felt it was worth it to remaster TOS, so why are you so certain they wouldn't do it with the others? I see no support for your argument, except an "I guess" on your part.
As for it being "impossible" for the later series to be presented in a High Def format, WHY? They're doing it with TOS. It's just a matter of CBS/Paramount DECIDING it's worth it to them to do so.
Again, they did it with TOS, so could do it with the later series too.
It's NOT impossible, and with TOS as an example, not all that improbable either.
As for the digital changeover, again, you're uninformed. There are cable companies that are discontinuing their analog service, leaving people with older sets (who formerly used their built-in cable-ready tuners) out in the cold. They'll HAVE to use a cable box from now on, or some other means of making the digital cable channels available to their older TVs.
Satellite may be the only exception to this...but give them time.
Look how long it took Paramount to release decent DVD versions of the films...
I just don't see them giving that much of a crap that they'd put forth so much effort for all those different shows.
Good luck with that.
They probably think TOS was the only hit of the bunch (just like some in the TOS forum RIGHT HERE do) and thus the only one worthy of HD treatment. I can just see some bean counter doing that....especially if BluRay and HD-DVD sales of TOS-R don't satisfy them.
Perhaps, but that's an entirely separate matter - it's not part of the government-imposed deadline, which *only* applies to OTA broadcasts. If a cable provider does that, it's on their own initiative.
Why do you think people will be disappointed? Because they're blind, or maybe you think the BR will have poor mastering? I've read about (and seen screenshots) of some pretty awesome BR discs.
Any film will look better in high def compared to standard def, unless they've botched the transfer/master.
Doug
Talking of HDTV: Somebody in the TOS forum said that TNG (and presumably DS9 and Voyager) would be completely impossible to air in HD, even with all new effects, because all of the LIVE ACTION would have to be reshot as well because of TNG's live action footage being on Digital Betacam tape (they apparently did not keep the actual film footage when they transferred it all to tape for editing) which has more resolution than 480i, but nowhere near 720 or 1080.
No, they are wrong. All Trek, with the exception of Enterprise's last two seasons, were shot on 35mm film stock. However, the editing was all done on videotape, which was then a very cost-effective way to do it, and there was no noticeable difference on SD televisions.
To do a true HD version of TNG would be a huge undertaking. No only would all the film stock have to be scanned in high definition, but every episode would need to be reconstructed from the rushes. The film stock apparantly does survive in Paramount's huge climate controlled vault - a shot of Ten Forward from 'Menage a Troi' was reused in Enterprise's finale, with additional picture information on the edges to make a 16:9 frame.
It will be vastly more costly than TOS to do each episode, but it is possible.
To do a true HD version of TNG would be a huge undertaking. No only would all the film stock have to be scanned in high definition, but every episode would need to be reconstructed from the rushes. The film stock apparantly does survive in Paramount's huge climate controlled vault - a shot of Ten Forward from 'Menage a Troi' was reused in Enterprise's finale, with additional picture information on the edges to make a 16:9 frame.
It will be vastly more costly than TOS to do each episode, but it is possible.
If they really did keep TNG's original film elements, why would it be any more expensive to redo *it* in HD (and presumably DS9 and Voyager) than it is for TOS?
And if the first two seasons of Enterprise were shot on film, how were they edited? (AFAIK, *all* of ENT is already being shown in HD, though)
And if the first two seasons of Enterprise were shot on film, how were they edited? (AFAIK, *all* of ENT is already being shown in HD, though)
As the years go on without a new Trek series as a continuous money maker, they'll have to keep re-packaging the stuff they're already created in order to make money. Somewhere, down the line, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw TNG (and the other Trek series) remastered for HD.
FYI - I was the one who posted that only BetacamSP masters existed, and none of the original/actual film had been saved because I came acoss someone stating that in a Cineplex article a few years ago. Personally, I thought that was a bit crazy given the franchise history of 'rising again'; but they also mentioned the cost of film preservation. If they did keep the raw stock, one issue solved.
But the major problem that exists for TNG is that the film would need to be cleaned up and re-transfered (no issue there); but since the completed masters do exist only on videotape; the live action would need to be fully re-posted using the Videotape as a reference source; and that's where it's more time consuming, etc.
At least with TOS, you had it shot and final posted on film 100%, meaning if there was a question during the transfer and re-post, you could get an actual frame count; but because film in 24 frames/sec and video is 30 franes/sec (with a dropframe); while it is possible, it maskes the final HD posting process all that more time intensive if they want to try and match the live action frame for frame.
Also, TOS is 80 episodes - while TNG is 167 DS9 and VOY are approx 173 each, and with all that extra posting to do, the cost may be close to what it originally cost to do an original episode.
IMO - If the original live action film still exists, I think TNG may get an HD makeover; BUT although DS9 is a hard core fan favorite, it may not have done well enough in syndication ratings to justify the cost bof an HD conversion. In the end (for HD syndication, CBS will probably be content with one signature show from each Star Trek 'era'; so you'll see TOS, TNG, and ENT (which was filed and produced in native HD format) syndicated for decades to come.
Of course I could be wrong, and CBS could shell out the cash to do every existing series; but again because of how TNG, DS9, and VOY were mastered, it's going to cost MUCH more than TOS did to convert to HD.
^ IF they decided to do TNG, assuming the original film survives, how much post production work are we talking about - is it just essentially dailies straight from set that survive? or cut episodes missing effects? what about things like voice dubbing or added sound effects? If we are talking about doing the entire post production process again for each episode, I really don't see it ever happening, it would be hugely expensive and not really financially viable - perhaps a DVD of 'TNG Best of - HD Version' would be possible with the top 5 fan favourite episodes or something. But the whole series? I can't see any studio deciding that 'Rascals' or 'The Outrageous Okona' is worth digitally updating.
With this thread title in the TNG forum, I thought you were talking about what TNG actually looks like on an HDTV.
Watching a 1080i source on an HDTV via an HDMI cable is pretty awesome. Watching a true 1080p source is even better.
I just upgraded my A/V equipment this past week myself. Got a 1080p Sharp Aquos and a 1080p up-converting DVD player, along with the HS receiver for DISH Network (of which I have a problem with, but that's a different story)
One of the biggest things for clarity is picture settings. On LCD screens, there's usually a backlight that controls a lot of the contrast. This along with the standard contrast and brightness setttings will do a horde of good things to the way a picture will look.
On my set, there's several pre-set picture setttings. One of the most dynamic looking is ironically called "Dynamic (Fixed)". It's a non-modifiable setting that really brings out the detail with a 1080 source.
I can't stress the distance thing enough. Even though the display may be an HD screen, it still needs some distance between it and the viewer to look its best.
As we all know, SD TV looks really, really bad up close. In fact, indiscernable up close. That's why we sit far away from the screen so that our eyes are fooled by the far apart pixels on the screen of a SD display.
It's the same thing with an HD screen. Although not clearly as bad. Can one view a source on an HD screen closer to the screen than a SD screen? Absolutely, but again, the further you are back from the screen the better.
I just got a 42" 1080p Sharp Aquos and my normal viewing distance is about 8' and yet it still looks better at about 10-11'. Unfortunately, that additional 2-3' is where my bed is. So if I sat on by bed with my back against the bad wall, I'd have the better picture than if I sat in my chair up against the edge of the bed.
I should also stress than even though a particular TV may advertise wide viewing angles, you will still get the better picture in the middle. As the picture will start to wash out from the sides, but NOT as bad as you'd think from previous big screen technology.
gastrof said:
It can be worse.
I was in a store today that had a DVD feeding into their HD sets, and it turned out the DVD had been made by the VOOM satellite people...
You know...the satellite service that went out of business EONS ago?
I like the way the store is keeping up to date.
On the other hand, I got a digital TV (displays Standard Def but has digital and analog tuners) for $150...brand spankin' new.
Hey, it'll get digital channels, and that's the key thing. I don't need a "just like you're there" picture.
It's TV.
I know I'm not there.
Just felt like commenting on this. Voom still exists, not the satellite provider, but 15 HD channels. Up until today on Dish Network had it. As of today, Cablevision is adding the channels(they own Voom). None the less, Voom still exists. Too see what they have see voom.tv
There was an interview with one of the TNG producers a few years after the show ended. He said that the original film was being preserved (at least as of that time), but to create an HD version they would have to redo all of the post production stuff and it would be very expensive.
He said they were hoping for some fancy image enhancement software/hardware to be developed to do the job instead. The upconversion technology that exists today is OK but still not good enough.
He said they were hoping for some fancy image enhancement software/hardware to be developed to do the job instead. The upconversion technology that exists today is OK but still not good enough.
Another thing I think I ought to mention is that it helps to set your source "box" to the resolution that the source material is in.
Let me explain that.
NTSC TV is broadcast in 480i, but when you try to display that resolution on a 720p or 1080i/p set that receiving a like resolution signal from the cable/satellite box, your 480i pic is going to look very blurry. It's like setting a 640x480 jpeg as your desktop pic when your desktop is set to say 1280x1024. It just ain't gonna look good.
So to improve this, you should set your cable/satellite box to either 480i/p so that your TV will reset its resolution (as such, it really doesn't, but it gives that effect) to that lower resolution which makes standard def material look better than it would if your box was set to 720p or 1080i.
Let me explain that.
NTSC TV is broadcast in 480i, but when you try to display that resolution on a 720p or 1080i/p set that receiving a like resolution signal from the cable/satellite box, your 480i pic is going to look very blurry. It's like setting a 640x480 jpeg as your desktop pic when your desktop is set to say 1280x1024. It just ain't gonna look good.
So to improve this, you should set your cable/satellite box to either 480i/p so that your TV will reset its resolution (as such, it really doesn't, but it gives that effect) to that lower resolution which makes standard def material look better than it would if your box was set to 720p or 1080i.
