Has Originality died in Hollywood?

[Kelso]

I wonder who he played in Arsenic and Old Lace. Jonathan Brewster?

 

[Mr Pointy Ears]

Think prequels are just as bad.

 

[Broccoli]

By Dracula, I mean, he was playing Dracula when he wasn't even playing Dracula. He was typecast and his other films didn't go very far to make you forget it. And he did play Dracula. A lot. Before and after the 1931 film.

Lugosi was approached in the summer of 1927 to star in a Broadway production of Dracula adapted by Hamilton Deane and John L. Balderston from Bram Stoker's novel. The Horace Liveright production was successful, running 261 performances before touring. He was soon called to Hollywood for character parts in early talkies.

From 1947 to 1950 he performed in summer stock, often in productions of Dracula or Arsenic and Old Lace, and during the rest of the year made personal appearances in a touring "spook show" and on television. While in England to play a six-month tour of Dracula in 1951

You're forgetting that most of Lugosi's stage work was playing Dracula.

I didn't forget it. I simply was not referring to it since this thread wasn't about his stage career, but rather his film career in which he played Dracula twice, with long period in between.

 

[AnyStar]

yes, it originality was never alive to begin with.

movies are not actually made to entertain us. they are made for profit, and originality is dangerous, period.

90% of the oiginal work we recognize as "original" comes from smaller, more idealistic studios.

even all the glitzed up and glamorous "award shows" we see are nothing more than part of the PR machine of these studios. its not about what was more original or entertaining, but who they want to build up in the public's eye to boost future box office.

bottom line: if you want to sell a movie in hollywood, dont go to them with an original idea, go to them with obvious "easy grab" cult followers eager to see your movie that hasnt even been green-lighted yet...

 

[Praxius]

Hi all, I'm currently doing research for my University dissertation in Animation. Although the course itself is in animation, for our written dissertation were encouraged to explore a wider range of media, so I have chosen to base my essay on Originality in Mainstream cinema, with a focus on the recent deluge of remakes and adaptations to come out of Hollywood.

I ask here because I need a lot of research to back up my work, and asking public opinion on the subject will be a massive help for me.

So, basically im here to ask the following questions: Do YOU think that Originality has Died in mainstream cinema? Why do you think its taken a backseat to remakes and adaptations? And is there still money to be made by original films?

Of course, I have my own opinions and assumptions on the above questions, but getting other opinions whether they are in agreement or disagreement will help me take this essay to the next level.

Thank you all in advance

-Dave

I took animation as well, best of luck in the future.

In my view, it's a generational thing.

Think of it this way: back in the 60's, 70's and esspecially the 80's, there was a lot of creativity and originality going on. Growing up as a kid in the 80's I remember all the crazy movies that were out, all the saturday morning cartoons.... it seemed like the peak of creativity and originality was hit.

Then along came the 90's..... now sure, music-wise, I felt the 90's stomped all over the 80's in regards to music..... but when it came to movies and saturday morning cartoons, everything seemed to drop.

Sure there were some pretty good movies in the 90's, but the creativity and originality was greatly reduced imo and was only getting worse and worse.

Why?

I chalk it up to Saturday morning cartoons.

Why?

Well when I grew up in the 80's, I had Tenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, I had Smurfs, Snorkles, Kissyfur, Robotech, Tailspin, Go-Bots, Transformers, Dino the Last Dinosaur, etc. etc.....

Before the 80's we had the Flintstones, Scooby-Do, The Jetsons, the Mighty Hercules with Newton, Spiderman and Superman, etc.

Then the 90's came along and then all our Saturday Morning cartoons seemed to switch from imagination and originality, to Disney based cartoons that focused on education, learning and school..... I remember seeing three cartoons in a row that revolved around Recess, or a short weekend between school, which everything they did revolved around what they learned in class, or had to do with their classmates, or teachers, etc. etc. (Disney's Recess, or the Magic School Bus as examples)

Now sure, education is always a good thing, but they screwed everything up when it comes to imagination and originality by doing what they did.

So now we had almost an entire decade of school crap I doubt many kids wanted to get involved in (seriously, these kids spent their entire week in school, dealing with school crap, and then on the weekends get stuck with Saturday Morning Cartoons that were nothing but more school)

So now we have the 2000's where nobody is used to using their imaginations and originality and the trend these days is to copy and remake all the good things that came before......

why?

Maybe to try and get people back into what used to be good and thus get us back on track with some new things later on that use pure imagination and originality.

or, maybe there isn't a shred of creativity left and all that's left is to recycle everybody else's previous work and try to make them better.

Another possibility is that it is now my generation that grew up in the 70's/80's whom were directly exposed to Transformers, Ninja Turtles, Astroboy, etc..... afterall, besides attracting a new audience to the things we grew up on, these are movies and shows that directly relate to us.

That and it's also a common trend these days to remake old movies and do them better (see Batman and Superman) so I guess it's easy to get sucked into that trend.

It does seem that a lot of creativity has been lost over the years and it doesn't seem like a load of original movies are coming out..... but the only blame I can place is towards the 90's.

Afterall, the 90's eventually passed us over to Reality TV, Britney Spears, over-glorified tabloid crap, and what I would consider an overall drop in societies' IQ level towards entertainment. Such shows like Seinfeld, Friends, Fraser and Everybody Loves Raymond sure didn't help.

Once again, I have a great love for the 90's for a number of things, mainly the music which brought back a quality I haven't seen since the 70's (I'm talking more about Alternative, Metal and Rock music, not Pop, R&B or Hip Hop/Rap)...... but when it comes to Movies and TV shows, something happened between the 80's and 90's that screwed everything up.

I suspect Regan's "War on Drugs" is to blame.

 

[Kegg]

Think of it this way: back in the 60's, 70's and esspecially the 80's, there was a lot of creativity and originality going on. Growing up as a kid in the 80's I remember all the crazy movies that were out, all the saturday morning cartoons.... it seemed like the peak of creativity and originality was hit.

Then along came the 90's.....

It is often said the golden age of science fiction is twelve. The same is certainly true of cartoons (well, eight perhaps.) It of course turns to crap around the point we're plain too old for this stuff.

I grew up with a couple of those as well - alright, just the Turtles and Transformers - and I'll gladly admit they're pretty piss-poor in retrospect. I certainly don't see how the thinly constructed plots blatantly designed to sell repackaged Japanese toys (in the case of the latter) is inherently better than similarly didactic edutainment. Hell, Sesame Street has a strong 'education' competent and that show was genius.

And there were shows I liked in the 90s too (having mostly grown up then) like Earthworm Jim - truly, a reasonably groovy guy - and the Tick. As well as schlocky shows I really dug at the time, like Skeleton Warriors. SKEL-E-TON WARRIORS! Catchy song.

 

[Praxius]

I remember playing the Earthworm Jim games but never delved into the cartoon and I do remember the Tick.... there are always exceptions to every rule, just as not all movies in this decade are unoriginal and uncreative..... but generally speaking, overall many of them were/are crap.

And yes, I've gone back to watch some of these cartoons and shows that I grew up on and many of them were kinda crappy, stories were lame, and full of all sorts of holes in their stories..... but kids didn't really care about that stuff back then, it was entertainment, it got your imagination going, they were for the most part, original characters and original stories.

Many of the sitcoms, movies and cartoons in the 90's seemed to have lost something along the way, where things like the educational cartoons and sitcoms listed above just recycled the same storylines, the same gimmicks the same situations as many shows that existed before them.... the only difference is that they were updated a bit for the era and changed around to seem original..... yet the sad thing was that in the 90's (when I was a teenager) many of these shows were very predictable and I pretty well knew how the story was going to unfold and end within the first 5-10 minutes of the show in question..... and since then, everything just kept getting worse.

Why?

Because many of the plots and situations have already been done multiple times before in multiple sitcoms and shows in the past in which I grew up watching.

Seriously, it's to the point now where I'm about to cancel my Digital TV because there's nothing on and the only thing I do seem to end up watching is the news, which I can easily get online these days on their own web sites....... and besides Star Trek that just was in theatres, which was the first movie I actually bothered to go see in the theatre since...... geez.... the last one before that was Austin Powers: Goldmember..... 7 years ago!

I used to go and watch all sorts of movies in the theatre and I had an entire wall full of VHS and DVD's that I collected over the years (Just recently started to give them all away to friends, family and total strangers cuz I can't take them with me when I move)...... now a days I notice myself shaking my head as I browse around movie rental stores, going around three times to make sure I didn't miss anything, only to finally conclude that I just wasted 45 minutes of my life looking for a movie I'd be interested in paying money to watch that isn't there.

It's now to the point where I have seen all the movies I wanted to see and everything else that's left is crap not worth my time.

But imo, it's not just the movie industry that's going into the crapper when it comes to originality and creativity, but the music industry seems to be taking a faster nose dive then the movies and tv shows..... as I know many in here would agree, considering the last few threads about award shows and such.

But one thing I always wanted to do since I was a wee lad was to get into animation, cartoons, movies, music, etc...... however due to the lack of available work where I currently live in those industries, I am working in Signs/Advertisement.

I will be moving to Australia in a little over a year or so where there will be more opportunity for my line of work, which at that time I imagine I'll get full swing back into the things I used to love..... and who knows.... you might actually see a movie or show I worked on (wishfull thinking at the moment)

I've created all sorts of original things in high school and in college that many told me I should make into a comic, cartoon or movie, and I have dozens of sketch pads from over the years loaded with all sorts of characters, story ideas, etc.

But recently due to lack of work in my area and other more important things in my life, all that had to be placed on the back burner for the time being, as 3D modeling/animation and the sort takes a lot of time and resources to actually complete anything worthwhile....... and having a 9-5 job in graphic design kinda burns you out from doing more on your own time when you have other things to do like sort bills, relationships, family, friends, etc.

 

[Kegg]

yet the sad thing was that in the 90's (when I was a teenager) many of these shows were very predictable and I pretty well knew how the story was going to unfold and end within the first 5-10 minutes of the show in question..... and since then, everything just kept getting worse.

Why?

Because many of the plots and situations have already been done multiple times before in multiple sitcoms and shows in the past in which I grew up watching.

Exactly. You grew older, more genre-savvy and more cynical. The 1990s weren't lesser than the 1980s, you just had shifting standards because you were growing up.

 

[Praxius]

Exactly. You grew older, more genre-savvy and more cynical. The 1990s weren't lesser than the 1980s, you just had shifting standards because you were growing up.

I can't say that exactly, since I've continually watched cartoons and the sort non stop through my life, mainly because it's part of my profession.

My standards I hold of them has changed very little, just my education and understanding has changed over the years, but that doesn't mean I chalk up all 90's stuff to being crap compared to the 80's. As someone mentioned before, The Tick was pretty good..... Tiny Toons Adventures was pretty good and still is in my opinion. There are always exceptions.... but those exceptions in the 90's got a lot smaller.

When it comes to the old cartoons like Flintstones, The Mighty Hercules, etc. that all came before I was born, my views of them as a child have not changed as an adult.

Even as a child, after several episodes, I began to notice the pattern in their stories, and while those older cartoons may not have been really in depth in their stories, they were still what I would consider as Original.

And that's what I'm getting at for the most part. There have been many good shows and movies in the 90's..... but those movies that were really good, tended to not be very original, while the originally made movies and shows that were also really good tended to not be as many as compared to the 80's.

Now here in the 2000's, it's even worse.

I can only think something between the 80's and 90's is somehow responsible for this trend to continue.

I'm starting to think it has something to do with this:

Animation Renaissance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_animation_in_the_United_States

In paticular, check out the section "The fall of Saturday morning"

I just stumbled on to this just a couple of minutes ago and seems to confirm my suspicions.

"..... As the 1990s began, the "Big Three" networks (ABC, NBC, and CBS) were no longer a triopoly. The fledgling Fox network launched a Fox Kids on weekdays and Saturdays in 1990, while The WB joined the competition shortly after its 1995 launch. On cable TV, Nickelodeon, the Disney Channel, and the Cartoon Network also grew to a point where they were competitive with broadcast. Video games and movies available on video also helped to change the market. The effect on the traditional broadcast networks was noticeable. When it compared the success of the live-action youth sitcom Saved By The Bell to the paucity of their animated hits, NBC gave up on cartoons in 1992 and concentrated on live action teenage shows with its TNBC block. ABC was purchased by Disney in 1995, and Disney transformed its Saturday schedule into a series of Disney-produced animated cartoons with One Saturday Morning. CBS was simply never able to come up with any new hits once the shows that anchored its late 1980s/early 1990s Saturday morning lineup (Muppet Babies, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Garfield and Friends, et al.) ran their respective courses. When they were purchased by Viacom, who also owned Nickelodeon, they simply repurposed much of the Nick Jr. lineup in addition to adding a Saturday edition of The Early Show......."

And here's the kicker that confirms exactly what I was saying above:

"....... As a result of years of activism by Action for Children's Television and others against shows they believed blurred the line between entertainment and advertising, the Children's Television Act was passed in 1990; it began to be strictly enforced in 1996. The Federal Communications Commission began requiring three hours a week, at times when children were awake, of educational and informational program intended explicitly for children. Since this required three hours to be "off limits" to programs aimed at the general public, the networks naturally chose to air them on Saturday morning, when children were already watching. As a result, almost every show is required to contain some educational content......."

^ And there you have it. Thank you Action for Children's Television you idiots.... you screwed up the future of creativity and imagination for a number of generations to come

 

[Kegg]

I can't say that exactly, since I've continually watched cartoons and the sort non stop through my life, mainly because it's part of my profession.

Ah, but you were also making a broader comment about movies and other TV shows. And I'd scarely consider the decade that brought us The Simpsons - one of the most successful and acclaimed cartoons ever, surely - and Frasier - just a sitcom I love so very, very dearly - as something that was a slouch in the cartoon or sitcom department.

Sure, looking back wend at the 80s, Cheers is magnificient (though I like Frasier better) but there's nothing comparable to the Simpsons. A good decade for sitcoms, clearly, and I didn't even mention that one by Larry David people seem to like for some reason.

And while your article is pretty interesting, I'd point to this:

While hits proved scarce for the broadcast networks in the 1990s, Nickelodeon gave birth to hit shows such as Doug, Rugrats, The Ren and Stimpy Show, Rocko's Modern Life, Hey Arnold!,

As a sort of important quote. I watched all of these shows growing up, and while they varied in quality (Ren was little more than gross-out humour, as I dimly recall) they were overall fairly decent children's entertainment.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Sorry for being WAY late to the discussion, but I think there's a factor that is not being addressed, and that is the difference between a series of films and sequels, the later being a somewhat loaded term.

A series of films is that which feature a common universe with one or more continuing factors (either the setting itself, or a character/characters) but where each film in and of itself is unique in the story. The story can be either "stand alones" (Bond films, Indiana Jones) or serialized (Star Wars, LOTR).

The negatively loaded term sequel I feel properly only applies to films where each successive film is an essential rehash of the film that came before it. The "Friday the 13th" films, "Jaws" films, "Freddy Kruger" films, "Die Hard" films, et al are those franchises that properly can be called "sequels". Another term for them might be "formula films".

 

[Praxius]

.... Ah, but you were also making a broader comment about movies and other TV shows. And I'd scarely consider the decade that brought us The Simpsons - one of the most successful and acclaimed cartoons ever, surely -

Actually The Simpsons began in 1987 on the Tracey Ullman Show and the TV series began in 1989.

and Frasier - just a sitcom I love so very, very dearly - as something that was a slouch in the cartoon or sitcom department.

I tried getting into Fraser and just couldn't.... in fact it seems most of the Sitcoms that are based in New York (basically all Sitcoms) I just don't relate to, let alone find funny. Maybe it's a society difference thing *shrugs*

Sure, looking back wend at the 80s, Cheers is magnificient (though I like Frasier better) but there's nothing comparable to the Simpsons. A good decade for sitcoms, clearly, and I didn't even mention that one by Larry David people seem to like for some reason.

And while your article is pretty interesting, I'd point to this:

While hits proved scarce for the broadcast networks in the 1990s, Nickelodeon gave birth to hit shows such as Doug, Rugrats, The Ren and Stimpy Show, Rocko's Modern Life, Hey Arnold!,

As a sort of important quote. I watched all of these shows growing up, and while they varied in quality (Ren was little more than gross-out humour, as I dimly recall) they were overall fairly decent children's entertainment.

You continue to pick out exceptions, which I have already freely admitted there are always exceptions to every rule..... but generally, the decade was filled with crap and the only good shows that existed in the 90's were spinoffs or continuations of shows that originated in the 80's (ie: The Simpsons, Cheers/Fraser Spinoff)

I liked Ren and Stimpy and Rocko's Modern Life was funny at times, and like I said, Tiny Toons Adventures/Animaniacs were amazing considering the shadow they had to crawl out from under with the original Tiny Toons that domninated the last 5-6 decades, and still holds it's ground today.

But the amount of entertaining original content in the 90's dropped a lot.

Inquiry:

What do you personally think of the cartoons and tv shows today? (Not including the movies today which is of course the main topic of discussion, but it's all related imo, since it all revolved around creativity and originality.)

 

[Kegg]

You continue to pick out exceptions, which I have already freely admitted there are always exceptions to every rule..... but generally, the decade was filled with crap

I remind you that the Saturday morning cartoons of the 1980s were generally... well... not that good. The shows I mentioned were at least okay, particularly when compared to Transformers and the Turtles. Considering most of my morning cartoon watching was shows like that and the Animaniacs (and Jim and Tick), I don't think they're really exceptions.

And, after all, Ted Sturgeon's rule: 90% of everything is crap. There wasa lot of that in the 80s too, and one could argue Cheers was an exception on the 1980s sitcom scene rather than the rule (The Cosby Show, anyone? Anyone?)

and the only good shows that existed in the 90's were spinoffs or continuations of shows that originated in the 80's (ie: The Simpsons, Cheers/Fraser Spinoff)

It's also worth noting that Simpsons and Frasier are routinely cited as two classic examples of spinoffs that may be better than the original. Certainly, the Simpsons is a spinoff of Tracey Ullman's Show in a fairly loose sense, and the initial premise for Frasier was not a spinoff of Cheers, but it was felt that any Kelsey Grammer vehicle would be benefited by the crossover appeal of that character.

Even ignoring that, judging the shows on their own merits... they're fairly good, no?

Also: Seinfeld. People seem to like that, but I never really understood the appeal. Do you?

Inquiry:

What do you personally think of the cartoons and tv shows today? (Not including the movies today which is of course the main topic of discussion, but it's all related imo, since it all revolved around creativity and originality.)

Fair enough.

I don't watch many cartoons on TV because I'm in my twenties and am not admittedly a cartoon buff. I like the new Star Wars cartoon well enough but I wouldn't defend it; the Simpsons has run out of steam and the Seth MacFarlane shows and South Park were never things that appealed to me. So it's a meh decade there (perhaps not, I suspect, for under-tens), though cartoons have done rather better in film for me (with the endless parade of Pixar pictures, Persepolis, and so forth).

TV has had a lot of greatness this decade. Dexter may be my favourite TV show of all time, Farscape, Battlestar Galactica and Charlie Jade were cool sci-fi shows, and Mad Men is just a lot of fun. The HBO/Showtime model of serious, intelligent TV which may have a shorter episode run than regular networks has been a striking formula for success. I've had less interest in sitcoms - they never seem to click (people say 30 Rock is funny - I don't get it) - though there is this raucuously funny show in Britain called The Inbetweeners, which is probably the best series ever made about teenagers and the sort of stuff I wish would have been on when I was that age. The British are masters at the mediocre, over-acclaimed sitcom, and this is not that show.

So, yeah, it's a good enough decade. There's crap, lots of it, but there was crap in the 90s and 80s too.

 

[Praxius]

Agreed and no, I never got Seinfeld's popularity either, along with many of the other shows you just described.

But I think the only tv/movie series that really holds a candle to originality in this decade I'd have to say is The Trailer Park Boys ..... of course I'm a bit bias in that because it was filmed a few minutes drive from where I live and I can relate to much of their humor and mentality.

They were ingenious in their own moronic ways. It wasn't just a Canadian tv show and movies, it was an Atlantic Canadian tv show and movies.... mean while Corner Gas seemed to be a Western Canada Phenomena, which I never got and found way too boring and timid in their humor..... sorta the complete opposite of TPB's.

 

[AnyStar]

i also can remember that once hollywood tried taking advantage of the "ADD/HD Generation" and re-tooled their cartoons accordingly, that the quality went into the crapper.

 

[Praxius]

i also can remember that once hollywood tried taking advantage of the "ADD/HD Generation" and re-tooled their cartoons accordingly, that the quality went into the crapper.

Ah, you mean Teletubbies, Barney and the sort?

Yeah that probably added to the ADD/HD problems if you ask me.

 

[QuasarVM]

I'd say there's a lot LESS originality in Hollywood, but we also get some original stuff as pointed out in some of these posts...so, it's not all bad.