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Harry Potter Films, Deathly Hallows Preview

Is it so hard to believe that her writing actually improved over the course of the seven books?

Considering Half Blood Prince and Deathly Hallows are significantly worse in every way than the likes of Prisoner Of Azkahban and Order of the Phoenix, then yes, it is hard to believe such statement.

There are only two scenes I am interesed in seeing in the final movie, the scene where a horocrux induced Ron sees Harry and Hermione making out and berating him, and the very romantic stuff of Harry and Hermione at Godrics Hollow. Both will rock. The rest of the stuff? Meh.
 
Is it so hard to believe that her writing actually improved over the course of the seven books?

Considering Half Blood Prince and Deathly Hallows are significantly worse in every way than the likes of Prisoner Of Azkahban and Order of the Phoenix, then yes, it is hard to believe such statement.
Same question and/or request to you. Precisely HOW are those two books worse than "Prisoner of Azkaban" - which is still my personal favorite of all seven, btw. I honestly want to know just why you feel the last two books are worse. Because evaluating these things is so subjective for the most part, I am always interested in what criteria folks use to make thees judgments.
 
Is it so hard to believe that her writing actually improved over the course of the seven books?

Considering Half Blood Prince and Deathly Hallows are significantly worse in every way than the likes of Prisoner Of Azkahban and Order of the Phoenix, then yes, it is hard to believe such statement.
Same question and/or request to you. Precisely HOW are those two books worse than "Prisoner of Azkaban" - which is still my personal favorite of all seven, btw. I honestly want to know just why you feel the last two books are worse. Because evaluating these things is so subjective for the most part, I am always interested in what criteria folks use to make thees judgments.

Book six and seven changed in tone from the previous five books, nearly every character was written out of sorts, Dumbledore for example went from a powerful wizard who had just (at the end of book five) dueled with confidence against Voldemort to a weak old man with delusions of grandeur whos great plan for Harry to beat Voldemort was to tell him stories of Voldemorts past (which, indicently, showed that Voldemort was born evil, negating the message of early books where everything is a choice), Hermione after five books of barely noticing or bothering about Ron while being completely focused and into Harry (I could list volumes of such incidents but it would take forever, ask if you wish to know some specific ones I am refering to). Plot points that had been given a lot of time to develop in previous books were dropped and ignored, ie the Veil in which Sirius fell through. Go back and read the section of book five that focused on it and then see how it is never mentioned again, or the locked door in the department of mysteries, etc..

Then there were stupid plot points that were created in the final two books, Ron speaking Parseltongue to open the chamber of secrets, ignoring the fact that previously this was considered a very, very rare magical gift and not a learnable language, so if the first five books were still in force at that point, Ron making random hissing sounds would not have opened the chamber but resulted in Ron looking like Joey in the friends episode where he thinks he is speaking french. Do not get me started on the idiotic idea of side-along apparation and the amount of moments it made look retroactively stupid from previous books when it wasnt used, most importantly the fact that Harry's parents when attacked by Voldemort didnt simply grab Harry and side along out, instead James went out to attack Voldemort while telling Lilly to grab Harry and "run".

The "romance" was written horribly. suddenly, after years of not giving a rats ass about her, Harry suddenly had a "monster in his chest" and could think of nothing more than wanting to kiss Ginny. How Ron managed to "win" Hermione, not by truely changing from being someone who constantly was rude to her, but through nothing more than a book that told him how to act nicer when around women. Or the fact that Ron needed a personality change in the final book, where the author gave him many characteristics of Harry, making him braver (him saving Harry and then destroying the horocrux when the trio were questing), making him smarter (the Parseltongue incident, as stupid as it was, was supposedly Ron being smart to think of this) and so on.

Or how about Draco, a guy for most of the books growing eviler with every book, delighting when the Basalisk was attacking students and hoping that Hermione would be the next to be attacked (book two), how he delighted in the fact when he thought Buckbeak would be executed (book three), how he was happy and joked about Digory dieing (book four) how he joined the mini nazi league with Umbridge (book five), only for him to be "redeemed" in a very fan fiction way in the final book and the completely out of character moment of him crying and baring his sole to a female ghost..

The homage/"rip off" of the Lord of the Rings with the Horocrux quest in book seven which was badly written, or the complete mess that was "wand mastery", which of course wasnt around in book five when the DA were dueling each other and regularly disarming each other of their wands...

Oh and the crappines of the epilogue...

I could go on and on, but the point is that I found near everything in book six and seven, the style of writing, the actions of the characters, the plot points used, the dialogue, the pacing, to be truely terrible, especially when compared to genuinely good books like POA and OotP.

In fact the only thing I found to be good of either the last two boosk was that in book seven, when Rowling was busy cementing the final relationship pairings, Hary and Hermione still got the most romantic scenes of the book. something the author has actually commented on since (around the end of 2008), in an interview for the books Harry: A History, where she says that in the final book Harry and Hermione share scenes that Ron is simply not a part of, how they are very intense and how the relationshiop question "could have gone that way" (Harry and Hermione).

Edited to add: Oh, and another thing that contributed to my dislike, the fact that the Patronus Charm, described in previous books as "complex magic", which even fully qualified wizards could not necessarily pull off, suddenly beacme the standard way in which every wizard and his dog sent messages to other wizards.
 
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Good! Good. That's the kind of reply I'm looking for. I don't have time to read it in detail just now, but I promise to later today.
 
There is no way they should put the epilogue in. If they artifically age the main cast for it, it'll just look wrong, and if they used different actors it would be a complete farce and devalve the whole ending. Better to do what many, many people do and ignore it, letting the film, and the series, end in Dumbledore's office.

I don't share that many criticisms of the last two books as stated above, but I definitely agree about the forced, out-of-nowhere romances. And the Patronus being used by every wizard and his Hippogriff when it was stated repeatedly it was extraordinarily complex and rare magic - practically the whole point of the spell in the third book - that has irritated me since Dumbledore's Army used it to make otters dance around their shoulders.

So what are these scenes that will be in the film even if they feature previously unused characters such as Bill or, dare we believe, Peeves? Other than the wedding, obviously.

Also, is the TDH film likely to have padding scenes made up for it, ala HBP and the nonsensical attac on the Burrow at Christmas?

ETA - my other main criticism, in line with the forgotten plot points, is the lack of any serious werewolf or giant threat from the dark alliance. So much is made of them, especially the giants in book 5, and the danger they pose. Yet in TDH the giants are reduced to bit part cannon fodder and the werewolves are nowhere to be seen. Except for Greyback, who does the sum total of nothing.
 
There is no way they should put the epilogue in. If they artifically age the main cast for it, it'll just look wrong, and if they used different actors it would be a complete farce and devalve the whole ending. Better to do what many, many people do and ignore it, letting the film, and the series, end in Dumbledore's office.
I agree. The epilogue may have worked for some people, but it's put me off every time I've tried to give it a go.

I don't share that many criticisms of the last two books as stated above, but I definitely agree about the forced, out-of-nowhere romances. And the Patronus being used by every wizard and his Hippogriff when it was stated repeatedly it was extraordinarily complex and rare magic - practically the whole point of the spell in the third book - that has irritated me since Dumbledore's Army used it to make otters dance around their shoulders.
I agree about the romances (particularly Harry/Ginny which came out of nowhere in HBP) save the one that really seems to drive MNM and darkwing up the wall, Ron/Hermione. :p

And I hadn't thought about the Patronus charm until now, it does seem kind of a cheat, but it doesn't really annoy me all that much.
 
I hadn't thought about the criticism of Side-Along Apparition until it was brought up earlier in the thread...I just started OotP in my re-read through of the series and it is really going to bug me now...
 
Do not get me started on the idiotic idea of side-along apparation and the amount of moments it made look retroactively stupid from previous books when it wasnt used, most importantly the fact that Harry's parents when attacked by Voldemort didnt simply grab Harry and side along out, instead James went out to attack Voldemort while telling Lilly to grab Harry and "run".
If this is what you're talking about ParticleMan, then it would be safe to assume in this example that Voldemort would have put up an anti-apparition AOE spell, to prevent the Potters from doing just this. I would like to know where else MNM has a problem with side-along though.
 
Do not get me started on the idiotic idea of side-along apparation and the amount of moments it made look retroactively stupid from previous books when it wasnt used, most importantly the fact that Harry's parents when attacked by Voldemort didnt simply grab Harry and side along out, instead James went out to attack Voldemort while telling Lilly to grab Harry and "run".
If this is what you're talking about ParticleMan, then it would be safe to assume in this example that Voldemort would have put up an anti-apparition AOE spell, to prevent the Potters from doing just this. I would like to know where else MNM has a problem with side-along though.

Yeah, that could have been...but now that I think about it, prior to HBP, apparition was always presented as a "licensed adult only" kind of deal, leaving magical families to rely on the Floo network or broomsticks or even (gasp!) the Undergroud when travelling with minors. Wouldn't it have been safer, for instance, for Moody to have used Side-Along Apparition to get Harry to Grimmauld Place at the beginning of OotP instead of flying?

Crap, methinks I've opened a can of worms for myself... :lol:
 
Is it so hard to believe that her writing actually improved over the course of the seven books? I would say her turning point was in The Goblet of Fire with the final three being much better written than the first three.

Since you did say different strokes earlier.

Yes. I think she reached the peak of her writing as the last 100 pages or so of Goblet of Fire. Which makes the book, an Empire Strikes Back - the pick of the entire series. The seemingly idyllic atmosphere of the games and then stuff starts happening... It was awesome.

I think she did capture a significant portion of this "magic" in OOtP's last few chapters. But it wasn't there in HBP or even in TDH.

Somehow TDH just turned me off - it's not really the Beetle The Bard tale or anything. But towards the end of the book, I wasn't on tenter-hooks like I should have been. I was just numb from it all.

My opinion of course.
 
I would like to know where else MNM has a problem with side-along though.

Just all the small bits from the previous books really.

Every year they hurry to try and get to Kings Cross on time, and cant apparate because the kids are too young to do it. In book four when Harry, Hermione and Ron's family walk to the port key to get to the world cup, they get up early because they have to walk and cant apparate yet, with Percy and the other elder brothers coming later because they can apparate (Percy himself having just passed his test), Cedric and his father in the same scene saying they had to get up at 2am to walk the distance as Cedric hadnt passed his apparation test. the time in book five after christmas when they have to get the Knight bus back to Hogwarts, etc...

All of those are moments when side-along apparation could have been used effectively, but because it wasnt invented till book six, they all retroactively become stupid (because they put in huge amounts of effort for something that could have been solved very simply with side along).

Now could Voldemort have cast an anti-apparation jinx when he attacked the Potters? sure. But again, because side-along wasnt invented till book six, we dont get told that, we get left with the original implication of which is that they didnt apparate out because Harry being a baby couldnt do it.

Now my main over-arching problem with all of that is that it was only created to give Harry a way of apparating around with Dumbledore in Half Blood Prince. which is even more stupid because Dumbledore is the most powerful wizard around, so you could have easily suspended your disbelief and accepted it if he had apparated Harry around with him (like the movie showed), rather than create a new apparating method.
 
As far as side-along apparation is concerned, I got the impression that it was more difficult to do than single apparation and couldn't be done if you had more than one 'passenger'.

Since many wizards don't care to apparate because it's challenging, I can understand why so few of them would attempt side-along apparation.
 
I actually thought too much was shown; Rowling should have shown more restraint than having Harry run around all over the place in order to witness various battles.

You wanted even LESS of what we all came to see in Book 7: the final showdown between the DEs/Voldie and the forces of the Light? They spend all that time setting it up and then don't pay it off

The books are supposed to be told through and principally about one perspective, with the wider issues secondary and supporting.

His education is crippled by pathetically poor teachers in multiple classes. [...]
He's deliberately kept OUT of Order business, even when it pertains to him by the smothering Molly Weasley.

Yes, some of the comical elements of the early books, and "left-out rebel" tone of the later ones don't really fit with Harry being both important and Dumbledore knowing he's important, the key. The former can only be attributed to a sharp change in direction, but with the latter it could be argued that Dumbledore wanted to keep him both humble and non-pessimistic.

Rowling shoves Harry/Ginny down the readers' throats for reasons known only to her. Creepy little stalker girl is a cypher for 5 books and BAM, all of a sudden she's his one and only?

I thought she had gotten over the "obsession" in book 4 and in both that one and book 5 she had fine development that made her more likable not just as a fan but her own character. The relationship isn't deep but isn't meant to be-they like each other but not on serious, "one and only" terms.

I agree that Ron/Hermione didn't make success, though.
 
Essentially I didn't have a problem with the Harry/Ginny romance, if for no other reason than it's been hinted at almost since book 1. With all of the time Harry spends around the Weasely's, why not have Ginny develop a crush on him and have it bloom further? There are hints at Harry's being a bit jealous earlier on, I think. Consequently, I didn't find the Harry/Ginny romance so otu of the blue as some others did. The Ron/Hermione romance is more what puzzled me given that they are nearly polar opposites in personality, background, etc.
 
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But it (the Ron/Hermione romance) kinda mirrors real life where occasionally the girl will choose the (comparative) sidekick sort as opposed to the serious kid.

And Harry is serious an awful lot. I think Ron made her laugh.
 
But it (the Ron/Hermione romance) kinda mirrors real life where occasionally the girl will choose the (comparative) sidekick sort as opposed to the serious kid.

And Harry is serious an awful lot. I think Ron made her laugh.

OKay, I can buy that to a certain extent. My wife says I make her laugh, so .....
 
Or how about Draco, a guy for most of the books growing eviler with every book, delighting when the Basalisk was attacking students and hoping that Hermione would be the next to be attacked (book two), how he delighted in the fact when he thought Buckbeak would be executed (book three), how he was happy and joked about Digory dieing (book four) how he joined the mini nazi league with Umbridge (book five), only for him to be "redeemed" in a very fan fiction way in the final book and the completely out of character moment of him crying and baring his sole to a female ghost...
I don't agree with that. In the early books, sure, he talked a good game, but he was basically a wuss when it came to the quick; books six and seven were him being shown to really be in over his head (same, ultimately, with his parents too). He was good at being a school bully, but not cut out for anything more.

On the subject of the epilogue, I agree that it shouldn't be included. Setting aside its merits (personally, I think it's mediocre, and the previous chapter is a superior conclusion; doesn't really add anything much that couldn't have been surmised, but some of the more hysterical accusations that it ruined the whole thing don't make the slightest bit of sense to me), the last thing we see should be Radcliffe, Watson, and Grint. The movies have been their story.

I'm really looking forward to the last two movies. A real jolt in format, and Rowling creates a ton of setpieces that should look spectacular on film.
 
I adore Half Blood Prince because it does something that I don't see very often and that is to flesh out the main bad guy. We know so little about Voldemort in the beginning and to have it presented in that way was enjoyable. I liked the small things and the parallels. It was fascinating take on the steps it took for Voldemort to become who he was.
 
So what are these scenes that will be in the film even if they feature previously unused characters such as Bill or, dare we believe, Peeves? Other than the wedding, obviously.

I've gotten the feeling of bias concerning the moves, all the non-human charaters were just written out

Also, is the TDH film likely to have padding scenes made up for it, ala HBP and the nonsensical attac on the Burrow at Christmas?

you mean they filmed the whole exposition of Tom Riddle/Voldemort, the underground lake, Dumbledore's death and funeral and still had TIME for anything else, and they MADE STUFF UP??!!


and as for the relationships, I think Ginny should have just been the girl with the crush in the earlier books & Harry & Cho never realy splitting (and the way Cho was written REALY irks me & just about every Chinese friend I know) Ron and Hermione I saw coming, if Rowling had written him as a little less thick
so as to have some charm & competency, i don't think anyone would have had a problem with it
 
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