Then why were they given to other people?
Harry Kim The 7 year Ensign??
- Thread starter GalaxyClass1701
- Start date
Then why were they given to other people?
And the permanent mark from the next emanation where he explained away a religion as fancy which was real while he told a prewarp culture about starships and aliens? How he proved he had the personality to temporalally exteminate a time line in Tmeless so that Starfleet would know that he could never be trusted EVER with a Starship that can approach warp 9.9? How he collaborated with alien scum who were slaving and torturing humans with obscene psychological games for a MONTH? And the permanent mark where he failed to recognize a "cloak" as a weapon and that he was gun running through a blockade forcing the federation to take sides in a purely foreign conflict?
This is what he did as a starting character?
Imagine how badly he could screw over starfleet's ideals if they afforded him an ounce of power?
This is what he did as a starting character?
Imagine how badly he could screw over starfleet's ideals if they afforded him an ounce of power?
Kim was pretty well screwed over for whatever reason, the Ensigns on the treks seem to be (Checkov not withstanding, considering hes something like a Commander by the 6th movie). This is pretty bad, considering Nog goes from a cadet, to Ensign, to even one of the (if not more then one) Lieutenant grades. Granted, they were fighting a war and needing to fill the ranks, but still. The man had done plenty to get promoted, I mean Janeway trusted him enough for a nightwatch so he clearly had to have taken the bridge officers exam.
Worf got promoted a few times, as for Data, I don't think there was to much an issue there, particularly as a few others in trek spent some time at full Lieutenant or Lieutenant Commander, add to that, there was a perceived "Starfleet owns you, you're property" for some of those years. O'Brien had to have been promoted a few times before DS9, his pips kept changing, and 'Chief' was usually referring to his duty as transporter chief or whatever. Bashir was a Lieutenant, Junior Grade when DS9 started and by the end was a full Lieutenant (I could have sworn Lieutenant Commander, but whatever), Jadzia and Ezri Dax were promoted. Kira and Sisko were to, but that's all beside the point those are different series. Right in VOY, Tuvox was promoted (not counting costume changes, because the costume department couldn't get it together), Tom was demoted and then promoted back to his rank, both of those men never left or changed their positions. That was Kim's point, he didn't care if he stood at Ops, but he was watching people around him get promoted, and then told there wasn't 'room' for promotions. What a crock of shit. To make matters worst, in alternate futures, Noami Wildman and Ichab were shown as ranked Starfleet officers, blah.
Anyways, Kim sucked not because Garret Wang can't act (I can't judge really, because VOY overall sucked), but because the character had very little growth. After seven years, he still had high optimistic views on possible return homes, and fell for whatever line people gave him. Even Tuvox and Paris changed a little...
Worf got promoted a few times, as for Data, I don't think there was to much an issue there, particularly as a few others in trek spent some time at full Lieutenant or Lieutenant Commander, add to that, there was a perceived "Starfleet owns you, you're property" for some of those years. O'Brien had to have been promoted a few times before DS9, his pips kept changing, and 'Chief' was usually referring to his duty as transporter chief or whatever. Bashir was a Lieutenant, Junior Grade when DS9 started and by the end was a full Lieutenant (I could have sworn Lieutenant Commander, but whatever), Jadzia and Ezri Dax were promoted. Kira and Sisko were to, but that's all beside the point those are different series. Right in VOY, Tuvox was promoted (not counting costume changes, because the costume department couldn't get it together), Tom was demoted and then promoted back to his rank, both of those men never left or changed their positions. That was Kim's point, he didn't care if he stood at Ops, but he was watching people around him get promoted, and then told there wasn't 'room' for promotions. What a crock of shit. To make matters worst, in alternate futures, Noami Wildman and Ichab were shown as ranked Starfleet officers, blah.
Anyways, Kim sucked not because Garret Wang can't act (I can't judge really, because VOY overall sucked), but because the character had very little growth. After seven years, he still had high optimistic views on possible return homes, and fell for whatever line people gave him. Even Tuvox and Paris changed a little...
The first got marginally less irritating and the second lost his hair?
Marrying a Klingon will do that to a bloke, god knows what he'll lose raising one of those feral critters?
Sometimes a person isn't of such weak character that they allow every experience they have to completely change who they are. Sometimes you DO stay who you are after going through years of adventures, instead of becoming a totally different person who bares no resemblance to the person you were at the start.
I know some folks say that the cast should've all died, or they should've all been totally different people with nothing in common with the people they were to begin with, but I just don't think that's really a good thing.
I know some folks say that the cast should've all died, or they should've all been totally different people with nothing in common with the people they were to begin with, but I just don't think that's really a good thing.
In timeless Garret got to play a bitter old coot. Someone who was effected by the deaths of all his friends, actually, considering the slipstream was his baby, and he was leading Voyager though slipspace... He had murdered them, how sad, so murdering all his friends, and then he had to work side by side with the most beautiful woman in the galaxy who he was absolutely in love with, who then after ignoring the heart on his sleeve all day long, warmed herself each and every night snuggling into some old man dick terrorist? Old Harry didn't so much as "grow" as that parts of him "died", and this husk was what was left over, but it was still a different character for Garret to play with and he did a fine job.
However, the regular Harry was still as green in the first season as the seventh.
Nightingale was a seventh season episode. "I am so a real officer! ...O, this is hard, THANK GOD I'm not a real Officer!" GREEN!
So was workforce. "Please mr Hologram, be my captain since working without a net gives me the trots." GREEN!
Hells, in Body and Soul, we found out that the real reason that he was so unlucky at love was that he had no idea how to use a sonic shower to any effect. Possibly it was that prevailing stink which predisastered everyone of his failed attempts at "keeping" the opposite sex to be doomed from first principles. RIPE GREEN!
Although the Doctor describing what sniffing Harry and Seven smelt like, completely dispenses with my Seven wore a stinky stillsuit (Dune silly.) theory.
However, the regular Harry was still as green in the first season as the seventh.
Nightingale was a seventh season episode. "I am so a real officer! ...O, this is hard, THANK GOD I'm not a real Officer!" GREEN!
So was workforce. "Please mr Hologram, be my captain since working without a net gives me the trots." GREEN!
Hells, in Body and Soul, we found out that the real reason that he was so unlucky at love was that he had no idea how to use a sonic shower to any effect. Possibly it was that prevailing stink which predisastered everyone of his failed attempts at "keeping" the opposite sex to be doomed from first principles. RIPE GREEN!
Although the Doctor describing what sniffing Harry and Seven smelt like, completely dispenses with my Seven wore a stinky stillsuit (Dune silly.) theory.
Oh dear god, please don't start this again. People don't think that and didn't want that. You do realize that developing in any way whatsoever is not inherently the same as "changed radically to a completely different person", right? Because it isn't.
I read this thread earlier, but now that I was watching a "relevant" episode of Voyager, I figured I'd chime in.
Basically, in the episode I'm watching (Flashback, S3 ep 2) it's established that Tuvok was on his first deep space mission 80 years ago. He was an ensign at the time. His long career was referenced in some earlier episode as well, but here it is examined in more detail. Now, consider that he is still a lieutenant at the time the episode is taking place. While he apparently left Starfleet for 50 years at some point, that still means that in 30 years of service he's only advanced a single rank (of course, his next promotion isn't too far off, but that's besides the point). And given his usual Vulcan proficiency and efficiency, you can assume his lack of advancement wasn't due to not performing his duties exceptionally.
Of course as was mentioned, there's other examples of long careers with not that much advancement, such as that of Data. Of course him being an android and being mostly considered as property for most of his existence was a major hinderance, but given that he had a Starfleet rank to begin with makes it relevant.
But in all this, one also has to keep in mind the overall structure of an organization such as Starfleet. There's always much less higher than lower ranks. You could say the ratio of "brass" compared to lower ranks will probably remain roughly constant. As such, for example let's say there's 1000 ensigns that graduate the same year. It stands to reason that not all 1000 can be admirals at the end of their career, because it would saturate the higher ranks. Therefore, those 1000 officers will end up being various ranks in the hierarchy, even after long and possibly distinctive careers. Think of the ol' gruffy US army/navy/whatever drill sergeants you see in movies and which most likely exist in real life as well. Some people just are fitting for a role, and they may stay in the role for a long, long time, which may well mean a lack of rank advancement as well. You won't be seeing a "drill general" barking at the men in a training course day in, day out!
There's also the fact that they are effectively the sole Starfleet presence in the Quadrant, and as such, they have only their limited number of personnel. Giving too many promotions would serve no purpose, as basically the command structure would remain the same regardless. While it could be said that Harry Kim's performance during the journey had merit enough for a promotion for sure (in an early S2 episode Janeway even commented on Kim's performance as they were crawling in the Jeffries tube while the ship was "imploding" in the anomaly/phenomenon, saying that it was far above her expectations), the promotion would have changed little. All this merit was also on record, and once they'd reach home, promotions etc could be handed out accordingly and many people would likely be assigned to serve in other locations.
With all that said, I suppose it wouldn't have hurt anyone to make Kim a lieutenant either. But the lack of advancement is not really a flaw in itself. Also the higher rank you are, the more of a leadership position you get generally speaking. While Kim is certainly proficient in his role, I wouldn't say he's a leadership kind of guy.
(Whoops, I did it again
Damn walls of text...)
Basically, in the episode I'm watching (Flashback, S3 ep 2) it's established that Tuvok was on his first deep space mission 80 years ago. He was an ensign at the time. His long career was referenced in some earlier episode as well, but here it is examined in more detail. Now, consider that he is still a lieutenant at the time the episode is taking place. While he apparently left Starfleet for 50 years at some point, that still means that in 30 years of service he's only advanced a single rank (of course, his next promotion isn't too far off, but that's besides the point). And given his usual Vulcan proficiency and efficiency, you can assume his lack of advancement wasn't due to not performing his duties exceptionally.
Of course as was mentioned, there's other examples of long careers with not that much advancement, such as that of Data. Of course him being an android and being mostly considered as property for most of his existence was a major hinderance, but given that he had a Starfleet rank to begin with makes it relevant.
But in all this, one also has to keep in mind the overall structure of an organization such as Starfleet. There's always much less higher than lower ranks. You could say the ratio of "brass" compared to lower ranks will probably remain roughly constant. As such, for example let's say there's 1000 ensigns that graduate the same year. It stands to reason that not all 1000 can be admirals at the end of their career, because it would saturate the higher ranks. Therefore, those 1000 officers will end up being various ranks in the hierarchy, even after long and possibly distinctive careers. Think of the ol' gruffy US army/navy/whatever drill sergeants you see in movies and which most likely exist in real life as well. Some people just are fitting for a role, and they may stay in the role for a long, long time, which may well mean a lack of rank advancement as well. You won't be seeing a "drill general" barking at the men in a training course day in, day out!
There's also the fact that they are effectively the sole Starfleet presence in the Quadrant, and as such, they have only their limited number of personnel. Giving too many promotions would serve no purpose, as basically the command structure would remain the same regardless. While it could be said that Harry Kim's performance during the journey had merit enough for a promotion for sure (in an early S2 episode Janeway even commented on Kim's performance as they were crawling in the Jeffries tube while the ship was "imploding" in the anomaly/phenomenon, saying that it was far above her expectations), the promotion would have changed little. All this merit was also on record, and once they'd reach home, promotions etc could be handed out accordingly and many people would likely be assigned to serve in other locations.
With all that said, I suppose it wouldn't have hurt anyone to make Kim a lieutenant either. But the lack of advancement is not really a flaw in itself. Also the higher rank you are, the more of a leadership position you get generally speaking. While Kim is certainly proficient in his role, I wouldn't say he's a leadership kind of guy.
(Whoops, I did it again
Damn walls of text...)
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Harry Kim did little other than modify things AFTER such modifications would have really been useful. He should have reversed the polarity on things like Geordi, then he'd be a Captain nine ways to Sunday.
Withers
Captain
There's an episode where Harry Kim rambles off his list of accolades that he accomplished during his time on Voyager. I can't remember the episode, specifically, or where it fell in the time line... but it is laudable and extensive. In spite of the actual character not "jumping of the screen" he had accomplished a lot for an ensign after, say, the end of season 4.
Equally as much as Nog had accomplished anyway. Nog made it from Cadet to Lieutenant in a pretty short amount of time ostensibly because of his service during the Dominion War. I would postulate that, by virtue of living through what he had by the end of season 4, Harry Kim deserved a promotion every bit as much.
The only reason I'd call the fact that he was never promoted a flaw is because they knew what had been done with Nog by the end of Voyager. There was no reason not to promote him especially given Voyager's comparatively low ranked staff.
(Note: The whole situation with Nog gets under my skin and I cite it as a flaw of DS9... for further elaboration on that see... I dunno, a different thread where I rant about that.)
-Withers-
Equally as much as Nog had accomplished anyway. Nog made it from Cadet to Lieutenant in a pretty short amount of time ostensibly because of his service during the Dominion War. I would postulate that, by virtue of living through what he had by the end of season 4, Harry Kim deserved a promotion every bit as much.
The only reason I'd call the fact that he was never promoted a flaw is because they knew what had been done with Nog by the end of Voyager. There was no reason not to promote him especially given Voyager's comparatively low ranked staff.
(Note: The whole situation with Nog gets under my skin and I cite it as a flaw of DS9... for further elaboration on that see... I dunno, a different thread where I rant about that.)
-Withers-
It was explained that Nog got his promotion because of the war killing off so many officers, and it was unlikely he'd get another one anytime soon.
As for Harry, I just don't think promotions meant much until they returned home. He still had his prestige and honor among the crew so what did it matter if he got another pip or not?
As for Harry, I just don't think promotions meant much until they returned home. He still had his prestige and honor among the crew so what did it matter if he got another pip or not?
Withers
Captain
That was explained in the show or on this forum? I don't think any justification for it was given (save for that when he made Lieutenant Junior Grade he said it was one of Sisko's final acts or something like that.) As to the war killing off so many officers? Well, okay, I mean I guess...
Voyager was thrown half way across the galaxy and a majority of the senior staff ate it. Comparatively it's the same situation; If officers getting killed off is justification for faster promotion then Harry Kim is a prime candidate.
That's a valid point but it goes both ways; if it is so inconsequential why not do it? It is an organization that places a lot of importance on rank (in certain situations anyway) and the goal is, ultimately, to be promoted. Help the poor guy out Janeway. He's earned it anybody has.
-Withers-
Hardly anyone on VOY got promoted, mainly because they figured that since they weren't a part of Starfleet Command anymore there was no need since everyone would know who they were and what they could do in the chain of command. Any promotions given mainly just in response to prior demotions that came as punishment. So it was more restoring them the rank they had prior, instead of a real promotion.
With shows like NuBSG it made more sense because they weren't separated from Command, they WERE all that was left of Command. VOY wasn't like that.
With shows like NuBSG it made more sense because they weren't separated from Command, they WERE all that was left of Command. VOY wasn't like that.
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