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Hard Star Trek

Agreed. The more I think about it, the more I believe the only way to continue the franchise is to reboot it or go further in the future. And I think audiences respond better to the former.

Nothing crazy like some suggestions where they don't leave Sol, and have no warp or anything like that. Still keep it trek, but just with a fresh take and contemporary voice. Keep the federation, aliens, warp, transporters, etc.

Just for the love of raptor jesus, please no melodrama.
Agreed for the most part, however this leaving sol obsession I think is a really outdated way of looking at space.

I think in the future this obsession with gravity wells, will be as foolish as a caveman being obsessed with finding warms caves in the heart of a suburban neighbourhood.

So you think we should aspire to visit Titan rather than Kepler-186f?

I have a better analogy for you. Your statement is like the Wright brothers aspiring to develop spring shoes instead of an airplane.

Dreaming, and pursuing what seems to be impossible is what spurs scientific discovery.
 
Agreed. The more I think about it, the more I believe the only way to continue the franchise is to reboot it or go further in the future. And I think audiences respond better to the former.

Nothing crazy like some suggestions where they don't leave Sol, and have no warp or anything like that. Still keep it trek, but just with a fresh take and contemporary voice. Keep the federation, aliens, warp, transporters, etc.

Just for the love of raptor jesus, please no melodrama.
Agreed for the most part, however this leaving sol obsession I think is a really outdated way of looking at space.

I think in the future this obsession with gravity wells, will be as foolish as a caveman being obsessed with finding warms caves in the heart of a suburban neighbourhood.

So you think we should aspire to visit Titan rather than Kepler-186f?

I have a better analogy for you. Your statement is like the Wright brothers aspiring to develop spring shoes instead of an airplane.

Dreaming, and pursuing what seems to be impossible is what spurs scientific discovery.

I'm confused now.Why would there be alien life, and a large government body uniting different worlds, but the show itself does not leave the Sol system? :confused:

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, is not the goal to explore out beyond what we are already exploring? I mean, the US has sent a probe to every planet in the Sol system. Short of Mars, human habitation out there seems a bit limited.

Scientists are constantly looking for Earth-like planets and the potential for alien life, and future colonization. Well, Sol system is not where it is at.
 
You could write some interesting stories set in our solar system, but without wagon-trains-to-the-stars it would not be Trek. It would be another franchise.
 
I'm confused now.Why would there be alien life, and a large government body uniting different worlds, but the show itself does not leave the Sol system?
Hmmmm, simply make every planet, dwarf planet, moon and large planetoid in our solar system habitable, each and every one of them with a different alien species.

The Oort cloud could hold tens of thousands of different species.

Plenty of room for alliances, enemies, wars and ancient history.
 
I'm confused now.Why would there be alien life, and a large government body uniting different worlds, but the show itself does not leave the Sol system?
Hmmmm, simply make every planet, dwarf planet, moon and large planetoid in our solar system habitable, each and every one of them with a different alien species.

The Oort cloud could hold tens of thousands of different species.

Plenty of room for alliances, enemies, wars and ancient history.

And that is why I like Heinlein ;)
 


Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, is not the goal to explore out beyond what we are already exploring? I mean, the US has sent a probe to every planet in the Sol system. Short of Mars, human habitation out there seems a bit limited.

Scientists are constantly looking for Earth-like planets and the potential for alien life, and future colonization. Well, Sol system is not where it is at.
There is quite a diversity of exoplanets! :) I would like to see some of this new knowledge in a Trek series.
 
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There are some things that are fundamentally set in Trek. If you remove too many of those things then you might as well do something else non Trek and original.

That said there is room to do more focused science in Trek--indeed nothing precludes it--but it's not a firm element that will make or break the show.

I, too, think ENT was hugely missed opportunity to do something fresher while still fitting within the familiar Trek continuity, but they simply blew it. They didn't have the vision and courage to do it.
 
Take FTL out of Star Trek and you take the Star out of it. Star Trek does not mean exclusively a trek to the Sol System. That's a stillborn concept. It would work on its own merits of course, but not as a reimagining of Star Trek.
 
First of all, Trek is not and should not be hard sci-fi. But at the same time it should create the illusion that we are actually on a Starship and here people use technical language. It's like watching a submarine movie, there will also be some technical language in it which you might not immediately understand.

In my opinion the problem was that the technobabble was too much in the foreground,and that the series have been too self-conscious about it. The proper way to do it would be to have it in the background (the sublime example of handling the foreground and the background well in the sc-fi realm is obviously "Children of Men" where you have all the interesting social stuff in the background).
It would have been as simple as the writers not using the technobabble as meaningless placeholder for "plot device that solves the problem." For Enterprise in particular, they should have based all of their systems on 21st century technologies and covered with the explanation that the Enterprise was woefully obsolete and that Starfleet gave it the exploration mission because probing outside the solar system was on the bottom of their priorities list (all the newer ships got border patrol/anti-piracy duty, which is where all the glory is). Even flip it around and make it so that the exploration program was something the Vulcans were pushing for and even Archer initially thought it was a stupid idea (which would explain why he doesn't seem to know what the hell he's doing through most of Season 1).

This way, they could draw most of their technobabble from the owners manuals of consumer electronics. The bridge monitors really ARE just cheap LCD screens, the computers run with ordinary transisters, resisters and wires, the "warp core" is an ordinary fission reactor with fuel rods and coolant loops and the impulse engines are an advanced ion drive (xenon as a fuel) with a little subspace fuckery involved that makes them work better. No "hull plating." No "scanners." No "transporters." No "phase cannons." Hell, not even phase pistols; give them tasers and shotguns with beanbag rounds for weapons.

"Hard" Star Trek can just be as simple as removing all the bells and whistles and making the heroes WORK for their victory. Science and technology can still be in the foreground, it just shouldn't be magical and meaningless.
 
Take FTL out of Star Trek and you take the Star out of it. Star Trek does not mean exclusively a trek to the Sol System. That's a stillborn concept. It would work on its own merits of course, but not as a reimagining of Star Trek.

Honestly, if you want to do that, than just reboot "Tom Corbett: Space Cadet: or something more Golden Age/Star Patrol.

It would have been as simple as the writers not using the technobabble as meaningless placeholder for "plot device that solves the problem." For Enterprise in particular, they should have based all of their systems on 21st century technologies and covered with the explanation that the Enterprise was woefully obsolete and that Starfleet gave it the exploration mission because probing outside the solar system was on the bottom of their priorities list (all the newer ships got border patrol/anti-piracy duty, which is where all the glory is). Even flip it around and make it so that the exploration program was something the Vulcans were pushing for and even Archer initially thought it was a stupid idea (which would explain why he doesn't seem to know what the hell he's doing through most of Season 1).

This way, they could draw most of their technobabble from the owners manuals of consumer electronics. The bridge monitors really ARE just cheap LCD screens, the computers run with ordinary transisters, resisters and wires, the "warp core" is an ordinary fission reactor with fuel rods and coolant loops and the impulse engines are an advanced ion drive (xenon as a fuel) with a little subspace fuckery involved that makes them work better. No "hull plating." No "scanners." No "transporters." No "phase cannons." Hell, not even phase pistols; give them tasers and shotguns with beanbag rounds for weapons.

"Hard" Star Trek can just be as simple as removing all the bells and whistles and making the heroes WORK for their victory. Science and technology can still be in the foreground, it just shouldn't be magical and meaningless.

This is an interesting take on the concept. Personally, I think it would be interesting to explore it.

The only idea that I would want to explore more is the direct energy weapons that are being conceived right now as anti-personnel weapons. Projectile weapons and hull integrity are not the best combination.

At least, in my opinion. Not sure if rounds could be developed to reduce the potential of puncturing the hull. Unless you have them as a back up in case of emergencies.
 
The only idea that I would want to explore more is the direct energy weapons that are being conceived right now as anti-personnel weapons. Projectile weapons and hull integrity are not the best combination.
I disagree. The nice thing about projectile weapons is that they too are not magical and the damage they can cause is pretty easy to conceptualize. So if Enterprise is in a fight with a squad of nausicans equipped with railguns, the alien shells will punch holes in the hull, shatter windows, blow holes in the floor and the ceiling. The "exploding consoles" on the bridge now have a physical component: Hoshi is thrown out of her chair and looks up to realize a 40mm shell just went through the wall two inches above her head. The redshirt in the security station isn't so lucky: high-speed projectile takes one of his legs off and now he's headed for sickbay to get fitted for a prosthetic. Repairing that damage is straightforward too: patch the hull, put in a new computer and a new monitor and reinstall all the software. Good to go.

OTOH, Enterprise is going to be fighting people who have far more advanced weapons, including projected energy weapons. This, too, gives you an opportunity to strip the tech of its bells and whistles: the Romulan warbird hits you with a nuclear-pumped X-ray laser that 1) slices a five-inch hole in the outer plating and damages some subsystems (but doesn't breach the inner hull) and 2) triggers radiation alarms on half the ship and suddenly you've got 20 people in sickbay with acute radiation poisoning. Yes, it's the future, we've definitely got medicine for that, but WHILE THEY'RE BEING TREATED, we now have a whole bunch of officers who are displaying radiation poisoning symptoms and five episodes later a mention of Trip developing a (fortunately, treatable) form of melanoma as an after-effect.

Not sure if rounds could be developed to reduce the potential of puncturing the hull.
C'mon, man, that's not even futuristic.

Ordinary hollowpoints are apparently useful in this regard too, but I'm hearing they pack a little more punch than most air marshals would like.
 
The only idea that I would want to explore more is the direct energy weapons that are being conceived right now as anti-personnel weapons. Projectile weapons and hull integrity are not the best combination.
I disagree. The nice thing about projectile weapons is that they too are not magical and the damage they can cause is pretty easy to conceptualize. So if Enterprise is in a fight with a squad of nausicans equipped with railguns, the alien shells will punch holes in the hull, shatter windows, blow holes in the floor and the ceiling. The "exploding consoles" on the bridge now have a physical component: Hoshi is thrown out of her chair and looks up to realize a 40mm shell just went through the wall two inches above her head. The redshirt in the security station isn't so lucky: high-speed projectile takes one of his legs off and now he's headed for sickbay to get fitted for a prosthetic. Repairing that damage is straightforward too: patch the hull, put in a new computer and a new monitor and reinstall all the software. Good to go.

OTOH, Enterprise is going to be fighting people who have far more advanced weapons, including projected energy weapons. This, too, gives you an opportunity to strip the tech of its bells and whistles: the Romulan warbird hits you with a nuclear-pumped X-ray laser that 1) slices a five-inch hole in the outer plating and damages some subsystems (but doesn't breach the inner hull) and 2) triggers radiation alarms on half the ship and suddenly you've got 20 people in sickbay with acute radiation poisoning. Yes, it's the future, we've definitely got medicine for that, but WHILE THEY'RE BEING TREATED, we now have a whole bunch of officers who are displaying radiation poisoning symptoms and five episodes later a mention of Trip developing a (fortunately, treatable) form of melanoma as an after-effect.

Not sure if rounds could be developed to reduce the potential of puncturing the hull.
C'mon, man, that's not even futuristic.

Ordinary hollowpoints are apparently useful in this regard too, but I'm hearing they pack a little more punch than most air marshals would like.

I didn't say it had to be futuristic. I'm well aware of frangible rounds and hollow point rounds. I understand the development of air marshal rounds and the like. But, I appreciate the information all the same. I just wonder if such rounds are enough to avoid internal damage during all the cool firefights.

As for the scenario, I like it but it doesn't feel like Star Trek, if that makes sense. It honestly feels more like Stargate, and more focused on the physical damage down to the ship and making Starfleet at more of a disadvantage than other species. While it makes sense with Starfleet still developing, it is a well worn trope that, I think, needs to be tread upon carefully.

But, I do like the scenario you described. Lots to think about :techman:
 
First of all, Trek is not and should not be hard sci-fi. But at the same time it should create the illusion that we are actually on a Starship and here people use technical language. It's like watching a submarine movie, there will also be some technical language in it which you might not immediately understand.

In my opinion the problem was that the technobabble was too much in the foreground,and that the series have been too self-conscious about it. The proper way to do it would be to have it in the background (the sublime example of handling the foreground and the background well in the sc-fi realm is obviously "Children of Men" where you have all the interesting social stuff in the background).
It would have been as simple as the writers not using the technobabble as meaningless placeholder for "plot device that solves the problem." For Enterprise in particular, they should have based all of their systems on 21st century technologies and covered with the explanation that the Enterprise was woefully obsolete and that Starfleet gave it the exploration mission because probing outside the solar system was on the bottom of their priorities list (all the newer ships got border patrol/anti-piracy duty, which is where all the glory is). Even flip it around and make it so that the exploration program was something the Vulcans were pushing for and even Archer initially thought it was a stupid idea (which would explain why he doesn't seem to know what the hell he's doing through most of Season 1).

This way, they could draw most of their technobabble from the owners manuals of consumer electronics. The bridge monitors really ARE just cheap LCD screens, the computers run with ordinary transisters, resisters and wires, the "warp core" is an ordinary fission reactor with fuel rods and coolant loops and the impulse engines are an advanced ion drive (xenon as a fuel) with a little subspace fuckery involved that makes them work better. No "hull plating." No "scanners." No "transporters." No "phase cannons." Hell, not even phase pistols; give them tasers and shotguns with beanbag rounds for weapons.

"Hard" Star Trek can just be as simple as removing all the bells and whistles and making the heroes WORK for their victory. Science and technology can still be in the foreground, it just shouldn't be magical and meaningless.
I think that such forms of technology would not be futuristic enough. At least use fusion reactors. The show was tied into current NASA designs via extrapolating them (shuttlepod). So I also think that Enterprise used the technobabble fairly reasonably, at least more than the previous three shows.

Agree though about phase guns and transporters, the show could have introduced the transporter far later, especially as they rarely used it anyway.
 
I agree, the protagonists should have to work for their successes. :techman: Technobable gimmicks don't do anything for drama, character development, social commentary....
 
Honestly, if you want to do that, than just reboot "Tom Corbett: Space Cadet: or something more Golden Age/Star Patrol.

Too late :guffaw:

b95e8f51d666d192c6b71acdca127a12_xl.jpg
 
C'mon, man, that's not even futuristic.

Ordinary hollowpoints are apparently useful in this regard too, but I'm hearing they pack a little more punch than most air marshals would like.
And even those are downright futuristic compared to flechette guns that were used for hundreds of years (maybe still in use? dunno) aboard French and other naval vessels as anti-personnel weapons to fight off boarding parties without risking hulling the ships. :)
 
What Trek trappings could be removed, but still allow the show to be Trek?
That's actually an interesting question.

Given TNG as the prime example you could theoretically create an entire new cast and perhaps even have them aboard a new ship. But I think you do need to have an interstellar traveling ship with FTL capability. Hence the "star trek."

It's been mentioned before but ENT missed a huge opportunity to give Trek a fresh face. What they ended up doing was half-hearted.

So it comes down to how creative are you willing to be? And how willing are you going against popular expectations? This forum has been full of ideas on revamping Trek in vatying measure from mild to wild. The only guarantee is that some will love it and some will hate it.

I think a big part of it would be the kind of stories told and how they're told. I also think any new Trek has to have a measure of optimism to it because that is something that is really identified with Star Trek. Making it too dark and edgy and outright cynical would be something too drastic for a lot of people to accept. If one were to go that route then you might as well do something non Trek where there would be no expectations.

Although I never watched Andromeda beyond a few early episodes the concept was essentially akin to showing a heroic group aboard an advanced starship trying to restart the Federation. In some respects Babylon 5 felt more like the kind of show ENT could have been in showing us a pre TOS era.

I don't think it's so much a question of taking away familiar trappings as opposed to reinterpreting them. JJtrek is, for all intents and purposes, a very mild reboot conceptually. It's basically a tweaking of the familiar and dressed in still familiar trappings. It's most drastic change was in the how it told its story.

But one could reboot/reinterpret Star Trek in a more drastic fashion. You could still keep many familiar elements yet reinterpret them in a much more contemporary manner. Although it may seem dated now (in some respects) this is what TNG did essentially. The key distinction could be to cut away from the established continuity. Sometime ago I suggested such an approach for a Star Trek that reinterpreted TOS and TNG into an entegrated whole. There was still an Enterprise, a Kirk, a Spock, a Picard, a Federation, Klingons, Romulans and such, but it was all reinterpreted and merged into a cohesive whole. The Next Generation literally was the next generation that gradually takes over from Kirk and company aboard the same Enterprise. Many of the familiar characters were there, but reinterpreted (and some with gender changes). By the time our new Picard has command of the Enterprise our new Kirk is an Admiral. If done just right it's an idea that could run for ten years as you transition from one group into the next.

For what you could take away you really only need to look around at what else has been done in the visual medium as well as in print. Lots of people have taken the basic idea of Star Trek and revamped into something different to suite their own tastes. Admittedly they make it work partly because it's no longer called Star Trek and so it's easier to allow for broader changes. David Gerrold's Star Wolf books are essentially that.
 
Warped 9, I quite agree about a measure of optimism. Eliminate that, and you might as well just create an entirely new show.
 
I think it's pre-existentialism as a whole you need to hold on to. Not just a measure of optimism.
 
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