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Happy Birthday Jennifer Lien!

Happy B-day! :)

I was going to say I don't think Lien has aged all that well, but I don't know the whole story. I've seen some recent photos of her a few days ago and it just doesn't look like Lien, and neither did the one posted here. What happened?

I do mean no disrespect. I shouldn't be the one to judge, but I have to admit, the shock value is there somewhat.
Meh. I know for people who may not have seen her recently, and are only going by her appearances in Voyager from almost 17 years ago, may be a little surprised, but if you didn't know who she was, does she really look that bad? She looks healthy and normal, and I personally think she looks pretty still. It was 17 years ago that she debuted as Kes. A LOT of people change a lot during that amount of time. Don't believe me? Go to a 20 year high school reunion! :eek:

You have to remember too that at conventions, where they do the on-stage interviews, the lighting is not the greatest, too.

One last thought. People assume that actors and actresses always want to remain in show biz. That is not always the case. Some, like Jennifer, choose to become "mere mortals" again, and have a family and have a normal life, rather than work 18 hour days, and living out of a trailer on set, eating saltines and water.

I don't know, she doesn't look that "healthy" to me. She looks frumpy and unattractive. Personally I don't understand how people let themselves get to that state but maybe I'm just too vain.
 
While I'm late in wishing so, I too would add my best of regards to Jennifer. My thoughts were with her, this past Wednesday, as she lives out life on her terms.I'm glad for the work she did have on the series, and will ever appreciate it. Saw her last year in Vegas, and will ever be grateful for the fact. She's my favorite on Voyager, has been since '96.
 
While I'm late in wishing so, I too would add my best of regards to Jennifer. My thoughts were with her, this past Wednesday, as she lives out life on her terms.I'm glad for the work she did have on the series, and will ever appreciate it. Saw her last year in Vegas, and will ever be grateful for the fact. She's my favorite on Voyager, has been since '96.


Well said Daggin! :techman:

You_Will_Fail obviously sets different standards for themselves than others go by and I wish them well in meeting those. :bolian:

I loved my Mum being cute and cuddly and I'm sure Jennifer's family could care less whether she's a size 0, as long as there's lots of kisses and cuddles to go round! :)

Chuckling :lol:
 
Happy B-day! :)

I was going to say I don't think Lien has aged all that well, but I don't know the whole story. I've seen some recent photos of her a few days ago and it just doesn't look like Lien, and neither did the one posted here. What happened?

I do mean no disrespect. I shouldn't be the one to judge, but I have to admit, the shock value is there somewhat.
Meh. I know for people who may not have seen her recently, and are only going by her appearances in Voyager from almost 17 years ago, may be a little surprised, but if you didn't know who she was, does she really look that bad? She looks healthy and normal, and I personally think she looks pretty still. It was 17 years ago that she debuted as Kes. A LOT of people change a lot during that amount of time. Don't believe me? Go to a 20 year high school reunion! :eek:

You have to remember too that at conventions, where they do the on-stage interviews, the lighting is not the greatest, too.

One last thought. People assume that actors and actresses always want to remain in show biz. That is not always the case. Some, like Jennifer, choose to become "mere mortals" again, and have a family and have a normal life, rather than work 18 hour days, and living out of a trailer on set, eating saltines and water.

I don't know, she doesn't look that "healthy" to me. She looks frumpy and unattractive. Personally I don't understand how people let themselves get to that state but maybe I'm just too vain.
Agreed.
Gaining weight doesn't mean you can't get your hair done and wear nice clothes when making a public appearance. Jen the only one that stage that looks like she just rolled out of bed and showed up.

Besides, I think there are enough people now that go to the gym on a regular basis to work out, keep their figure and not have to starve themselves. I would think by now we'd know that proper exercise and not starving oneself is the way to stay healthy and that skinny doesn't mean you still can't have a high percent of body fat.

^ The whole size zero thing is sheer madness - a very sad indictment of our increasingly perverse "beauty benchmarks".
I've always been of the belief that doctors don't prescribe exercise and proper eating suggestions as a way to maintain "beauty benchmarks" but rather to promote "healthy" living. Regardless of personal opinions here, I still doubt any respectable doctor would look at Mrs. Lien and say she's healthy for her height and body frame.
 
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Happy B-day! :)


Meh. I know for people who may not have seen her recently, and are only going by her appearances in Voyager from almost 17 years ago, may be a little surprised, but if you didn't know who she was, does she really look that bad? She looks healthy and normal, and I personally think she looks pretty still. It was 17 years ago that she debuted as Kes. A LOT of people change a lot during that amount of time. Don't believe me? Go to a 20 year high school reunion! :eek:

You have to remember too that at conventions, where they do the on-stage interviews, the lighting is not the greatest, too.

One last thought. People assume that actors and actresses always want to remain in show biz. That is not always the case. Some, like Jennifer, choose to become "mere mortals" again, and have a family and have a normal life, rather than work 18 hour days, and living out of a trailer on set, eating saltines and water.

I don't know, she doesn't look that "healthy" to me. She looks frumpy and unattractive. Personally I don't understand how people let themselves get to that state but maybe I'm just too vain.
Agreed.
Gaining weight doesn't mean you can't get your hair done and wear nice clothes when making a public appearance. Jen the only one that stage that looks like she just rolled out of bed and showed up.

Besides, I think there are enough people now that go to the gym on a regular basis to work out, keep their figure and not have to starve themselves. I would think by now we'd know that proper exercise and not starving oneself is the way to stay healthy and that skinny doesn't mean you still can't have a high percent of body fat.

^ The whole size zero thing is sheer madness - a very sad indictment of our increasingly perverse "beauty benchmarks".
I've always been of the belief that doctors don't prescribe exercise and proper eating suggestions as a way to maintain "beauty benchmarks" but rather to promote "healthy" living. Regardless of personal opinions here, I still doubt any respectable doctor would look at Mrs. Lien and say she's healthy for her height and body frame.


OK, I can see that point of view. But have you ever had an unflattering photo taken? See the vest Jennifer is wearing in that photo? Very few people can wear those and still look "healthy".

It's a poor camera angle with bad lighting and the clothes are bulky. Frankly, it looks like it's been shot by a fan aiming from beneath the nostrils, an angle nobody shoots from because these are the kind of results it produces. It skews the perspective and the subject never comes out accurately or looking good. :eek:

If you look at the other shots from Las Vegas, Jennifer doesn't look anywhere near as cuddly. ;)

Here's the thing (as far as I'm concerned). What are you going to hear and see at a convention? Actors or models? If she were a model, I'd agree with you that their job is to look good and present themselves immaculately. But these are actors and a convention is supposed to be a place where people relax and have some fun. I like to see the actors doing that as well as the audience! :)

Chuckling :lol:
 
^ The whole size zero thing is sheer madness - a very sad indictment of our increasingly perverse "beauty benchmarks".
I've always been of the belief that doctors don't prescribe exercise and proper eating suggestions as a way to maintain "beauty benchmarks" but rather to promote "healthy" living. Regardless of personal opinions here, I still doubt any respectable doctor would look at Mrs. Lien and say she's healthy for her height and body frame.
I'm speaking as someone who is a health and fitness fanatic (bore as my wife and friends will tell you). However, outward appearances can be highly deceptive as I'm sure you know. BMI is just a rough guide, and I can tell you with some assurance, size zero is NOT HEALTHY. In fact, there is evidence to suggest being slightly overweight and active is far healthier than skeletal starvation surviving on black coffee and celery sticks.

It is perfectly possible to "appear" unhealthy based on media (gestapo) concepts of perfect body image, but be at no appreciable additional risk of heart disease etc. The opposite is true as well of course.
 
OK, I can see that point of view. But have you ever had an unflattering photo taken? See the vest Jennifer is wearing in that photo? Very few people can wear those and still look "healthy".
I'm going to assume to mean "fashionable" and not "healthy".

If you look at the other shots from Las Vegas, Jennifer doesn't look anywhere near as cuddly. ;)
Honestly, I don't see much difference.

Here's the thing (as far as I'm concerned). What are you going to hear and see at a convention? Actors or models? If she were a model, I'd agree with you that their job is to look good and present themselves immaculately. But these are actors and a convention is supposed to be a place where people relax and have some fun. I like to see the actors doing that as well as the audience! :)
So you're saying you have to be a model to have personal pride in your appearance?
Isn't that a little extreme and unrealistic?

How is relaxing for an actor to have hundreds of flashbulbs go off in your face, signing autographs until your hands cramp, in a overly loud room with fans asking you the same questions you answered over & over again and speaking to you as if you are your character not as yourself?
 
^ The whole size zero thing is sheer madness - a very sad indictment of our increasingly perverse "beauty benchmarks".
I've always been of the belief that doctors don't prescribe exercise and proper eating suggestions as a way to maintain "beauty benchmarks" but rather to promote "healthy" living. Regardless of personal opinions here, I still doubt any respectable doctor would look at Mrs. Lien and say she's healthy for her height and body frame.
I'm speaking as someone who is a health and fitness fanatic (bore as my wife and friends will tell you). However, outward appearances can be highly deceptive as I'm sure you know. BMI is just a rough guide, and I can tell you with some assurance, size zero is NOT HEALTHY. In fact, there is evidence to suggest being slightly overweight and active is far healthier than skeletal starvation surviving on black coffee and celery sticks.

It is perfectly possible to "appear" unhealthy based on media (gestapo) concepts of perfect body image, but be at no appreciable additional risk of heart disease etc. The opposite is true as well of course.
Then I'm glad I covered my bases by saying "healthy for her height and body frame" as well as proper exercise and eating right.

Note: I never said nor implied a size 2 was healthy for her either and also denounced the idea of having to starve oneself to maintain one size.
 
OK, I can see that point of view. But have you ever had an unflattering photo taken? See the vest Jennifer is wearing in that photo? Very few people can wear those and still look "healthy".
I'm going to assume to mean "fashionable" and not "healthy".

If you look at the other shots from Las Vegas, Jennifer doesn't look anywhere near as cuddly. ;)
Honestly, I don't see much difference.

Here's the thing (as far as I'm concerned). What are you going to hear and see at a convention? Actors or models? If she were a model, I'd agree with you that their job is to look good and present themselves immaculately. But these are actors and a convention is supposed to be a place where people relax and have some fun. I like to see the actors doing that as well as the audience! :)
So you're saying you have to be a model to have personal pride in your appearance?
Isn't that a little extreme and unrealistic?

How is relaxing for an actor to have hundreds of flashbulbs go off in your face, signing autographs until your hands cramp, in a overly loud room with fans asking you the same questions you answered over & over again and speaking to you as if you are your character not as yourself?

Every fan going to a convention is going to have different expectations of the actor/s they are there to see. Your POV is going to be different to the next person's and in the final analysis, is there any reason an actor should listen to your opinion of how they should look over that of one of the other fans?

Or any reason they should listen to those opinions of fans at all? Ever looked around at a convention and seen how fans and attendees dress? And yet each has gone there dressed in whatever way they feel happy with. Same thing with the actors. You want to meet them as who they are and get to know them a little which is the whole point of having them there as guests at all. If they pretended to be somebody else, you'd be disappointed. Wouldn't you? They're not there to play a role.

How do you dress when you go to a convention? How do you know Jennifer hasn't dressed up and put on make-up and that could be her choice of clothing as appropriate for the occasion. She may have spent a great deal of time making these choices and putting effort in. You can't tell how much time and effort she's put in from looking at a photo! :rofl: She may have spent weeks worrying about what to wear and how to look so the fans will be happy to see her! Bless her cotton socks! Perhaps she's dressing for the Greenies in the room: Horses for courses.

Maybe this is why Jennifer is quiet on these occasions. Maybe she is aware the fans can be judgmental and she's trying not to offend anyone. I don't know, I'm only guessing here.

But actors don't usually get style lessons in their degrees and their makeup and hairdressing classes generally lean towards character portrayals and period dramas. I'm guessing it is probably easier for many actors to appear in costume and full make-up than to turn up in their own street clothes and make-up. Let's remember there's no stylist or make-up artist backstage or in the Green room at these events. Plus those cost money and the actors are there to make money, not spend it.

So if you want to see the actors up-close-and-personal, what you see is what you get. I think it's great they want to meet the fans as well and take the time to do so.


Chuckling :lol:
 
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OK, I can see that point of view. But have you ever had an unflattering photo taken? See the vest Jennifer is wearing in that photo? Very few people can wear those and still look "healthy".
I'm going to assume to mean "fashionable" and not "healthy".

Honestly, I don't see much difference.

Here's the thing (as far as I'm concerned). What are you going to hear and see at a convention? Actors or models? If she were a model, I'd agree with you that their job is to look good and present themselves immaculately. But these are actors and a convention is supposed to be a place where people relax and have some fun. I like to see the actors doing that as well as the audience! :)
So you're saying you have to be a model to have personal pride in your appearance?
Isn't that a little extreme and unrealistic?

How is relaxing for an actor to have hundreds of flashbulbs go off in your face, signing autographs until your hands cramp, in a overly loud room with fans asking you the same questions you answered over & over again and speaking to you as if you are your character not as yourself?

Every fan going to a convention is going to have different expectations of the actor/s they are there to see. Your POV is going to be different to the next person's and in the final analysis, is there any reason an actor should listen to your opinion of how they should look over that of one of the other fans?

Or any reason they should listen to those opinions of fans at all? Ever looked around at a convention and seen how fans and attendees dress? And yet each has gone there dressed in whatever way they feel happy with. Same thing with the actors. You want to meet them as who they are and get to know them a little which is the whole point of having them there as guests at all. If they pretended to be somebody else, you'd be disappointed. Wouldn't you? They're not there to play a role.

How do you dress when you go to a convention? How do you know Jennifer hasn't dressed up and put on make-up and that could be her choice of clothing as appropriate for the occasion. She may have spent a great deal of time making these choices and putting effort in. You can't tell how much time and effort she's put in from looking at a photo! :rofl: She may have spent weeks worrying about what to wear and how to look so the fans will be happy to see her! Bless her cotton socks! Perhaps she's dressing for the Greenies in the room: Horses for courses.

Maybe this is why Jennifer is quiet on these occasions. Maybe she is aware the fans can be judgmental and she's trying not to offend anyone. I don't know, I'm only guessing here.

But actors don't usually get style lessons in their degrees and their makeup and hairdressing classes generally lean towards character portrayals and period dramas. I'm guessing it is probably easier for many actors to appear in costume and full make-up than to turn up in their own street clothes and make-up. Let's remember there's no stylist or make-up artist backstage or in the Green room at these events. Plus those cost money and the actors are there to make money, not spend it.

So if you want to see the actors up-close-and-personal, what you see is what you get. I think it's great they want to meet the fans as well and take the time to do so.


Chuckling :lol:

It's pretty simple: if fans from all over the world are paying money to come see me, then yes I'm going to care about my appearance. Anyone that respected their fans enough to know how far they come from and how much they pay, would think enough of them to show up with their hair done and fresh dressed. I think it's pretty insulting to be a fan from Germany that pays hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars they saved up for long time just to come see me, getting paid in return to meet them and I greet them in a T-Shirt and sweatpants. It gives the impression, I'm only here for your money but I really have no real interest in really being here.
 
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I'm going to assume to mean "fashionable" and not "healthy".

Honestly, I don't see much difference.

So you're saying you have to be a model to have personal pride in your appearance?
Isn't that a little extreme and unrealistic?

How is relaxing for an actor to have hundreds of flashbulbs go off in your face, signing autographs until your hands cramp, in a overly loud room with fans asking you the same questions you answered over & over again and speaking to you as if you are your character not as yourself?

Every fan going to a convention is going to have different expectations of the actor/s they are there to see. Your POV is going to be different to the next person's and in the final analysis, is there any reason an actor should listen to your opinion of how they should look over that of one of the other fans?

Or any reason they should listen to those opinions of fans at all? Ever looked around at a convention and seen how fans and attendees dress? And yet each has gone there dressed in whatever way they feel happy with. Same thing with the actors. You want to meet them as who they are and get to know them a little which is the whole point of having them there as guests at all. If they pretended to be somebody else, you'd be disappointed. Wouldn't you? They're not there to play a role.

How do you dress when you go to a convention? How do you know Jennifer hasn't dressed up and put on make-up and that could be her choice of clothing as appropriate for the occasion. She may have spent a great deal of time making these choices and putting effort in. You can't tell how much time and effort she's put in from looking at a photo! :rofl: She may have spent weeks worrying about what to wear and how to look so the fans will be happy to see her! Bless her cotton socks! Perhaps she's dressing for the Greenies in the room: Horses for courses.

Maybe this is why Jennifer is quiet on these occasions. Maybe she is aware the fans can be judgmental and she's trying not to offend anyone. I don't know, I'm only guessing here.

But actors don't usually get style lessons in their degrees and their makeup and hairdressing classes generally lean towards character portrayals and period dramas. I'm guessing it is probably easier for many actors to appear in costume and full make-up than to turn up in their own street clothes and make-up. Let's remember there's no stylist or make-up artist backstage or in the Green room at these events. Plus those cost money and the actors are there to make money, not spend it.

So if you want to see the actors up-close-and-personal, what you see is what you get. I think it's great they want to meet the fans as well and take the time to do so.


Chuckling :lol:

It's pretty simple: if fans from all over the world are paying money to come see me, then yes I'm going to care about my appearance. Anyone that respected their fans enough to know how far they come from and how much they pay, would think enough of them to show up with their hair done and fresh dressed. I think it's pretty insulting to be a fan from Germany that pays hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars they saved up for long time just to come see me, getting paid in return to meet them and I greet them in a T-Shirt and sweatpants. It gives the impression, I'm only here for your money but I really have no real interest in really being here.

Jennifer's hair is done (it's brushed and tied back) and her clothes are color co-ordinated.

In fact, to the environmentalists and conservationists et al in the audience, they would potentially approve more of her apparel and hairstyle (natural) than others appearing on stage.

They would interpret what she is wearing and how she is dressing as being responsible and caring towards the sensitivities of the fans. Many Star Trek fans are Greenies. What you're describing is dependent on cultural perspective and political viewpoint. I am suggesting Jennifer Lien is catering to a particular section of the Star Trek family. Let others cater to those who prefer things otherwise and allow Jennifer to appeal to those who like somebody to dress with more natural appeal.

Chuckling :lol:
 
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Every fan going to a convention is going to have different expectations of the actor/s they are there to see. Your POV is going to be different to the next person's and in the final analysis, is there any reason an actor should listen to your opinion of how they should look over that of one of the other fans?

Or any reason they should listen to those opinions of fans at all? Ever looked around at a convention and seen how fans and attendees dress? And yet each has gone there dressed in whatever way they feel happy with. Same thing with the actors. You want to meet them as who they are and get to know them a little which is the whole point of having them there as guests at all. If they pretended to be somebody else, you'd be disappointed. Wouldn't you? They're not there to play a role.

How do you dress when you go to a convention? How do you know Jennifer hasn't dressed up and put on make-up and that could be her choice of clothing as appropriate for the occasion. She may have spent a great deal of time making these choices and putting effort in. You can't tell how much time and effort she's put in from looking at a photo! :rofl: She may have spent weeks worrying about what to wear and how to look so the fans will be happy to see her! Bless her cotton socks! Perhaps she's dressing for the Greenies in the room: Horses for courses.

Maybe this is why Jennifer is quiet on these occasions. Maybe she is aware the fans can be judgmental and she's trying not to offend anyone. I don't know, I'm only guessing here.

But actors don't usually get style lessons in their degrees and their makeup and hairdressing classes generally lean towards character portrayals and period dramas. I'm guessing it is probably easier for many actors to appear in costume and full make-up than to turn up in their own street clothes and make-up. Let's remember there's no stylist or make-up artist backstage or in the Green room at these events. Plus those cost money and the actors are there to make money, not spend it.

So if you want to see the actors up-close-and-personal, what you see is what you get. I think it's great they want to meet the fans as well and take the time to do so.


Chuckling :lol:

It's pretty simple: if fans from all over the world are paying money to come see me, then yes I'm going to care about my appearance. Anyone that respected their fans enough to know how far they come from and how much they pay, would think enough of them to show up with their hair done and fresh dressed. I think it's pretty insulting to be a fan from Germany that pays hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars they saved up for long time just to come see me, getting paid in return to meet them and I greet them in a T-Shirt and sweatpants. It gives the impression, I'm only here for your money but I really have no real interest in really being here.

Jennifer's hair is done (it's brushed and tied back) and her clothes are color co-ordinated.

In fact, to the environmentalists and conservationists et al in the audience, they would potentially approve more of her apparel and hairstyle (natural) than others appearing on stage.

They would interpret what she is wearing and how she is dressing as being responsible and caring towards the sensitivities of the fans. Many Star Trek fans are Greenies. What you're describing is dependent on cultural perspective and political viewpoint. I am suggesting Jennifer Lien is catering to a particular section of the Star Trek family. Let others cater to those who prefer things otherwise and allow Jennifer to appeal to those who like somebody to dress with more natural appeal.

Chuckling :lol:
...and it was just that type of thinking and attitude that made Lien aware she wasn't cut out to be a actress in the public spotlight.
 
I don't think that "it was just that type of thinking and attitude that made Lien aware she wasn't cut out to be a actress in the public spotlight." If it was, then she wouldn't have continued to attend conventions either. It might have more to do with being not so nicely treated by certain people in charge and realizing that life has more to offer than acting.

I also wonder why is Lien the only one singled out for bad dress, bad appearance and who knows what? There have been conventions where certain actors have looked not exactly out of a fashion magazine either but Lien is the only one who is trashed.

Not to mention that the picture with her in the vest is about 8 years old. It was a period around 2004-2007 when she was as thin as she was during her Voyager days.
 
I saw Shatner on stage with his wrinkled shirt pulled out, stretched around an overgrown belly and food stains on the front. People are not complaining about him. Is this a woman thing?
 
^I wonder if it's a legendary status that Trek fans hold with Shatner. And we're comparing Captain Kirk to Kes. Not really much of a comparison there.
 
Very doubtful Lien left acting due too “not being treated nicely by certain people“, considering Lien continued to act after Voyager and then returned years later to reprise the role of Kes. Frankly, the only one that address the topic truthfully is Lien herself. IMO I don't believe Lien is this weak fragile flower that her fans make her out to be and that she would quit the entire industry of acting just because she was let go from one job. Lien was working with some of the biggest names in Hollywood before, during and after Voyager. With or without Trek, Liens career was on the fast track to success.
 
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Personally, I find it pretty callous and shallow to be slamming Jennifer Lein over her appearance. Ever consider that maybe she has a medical condition causing her weight gain? Maybe it is depression? Maybe its just genetics? Maybe she is dressing down intentionally specifically because she doesn't want to deal with stalkers, which do happen to actresses regardless of how well known they are (remember that Designing Women girl from the 90s? She was KILLED by a stalker, and now I can't even remember her name, sadly), more than the public is aware. Or maybe it is nothing at all, and she is comfortable with her appearance, in which case, it's her business, and her business alone.

Whatever the reason, Lein is not in show business anymore, and should not be held to a movie star\model standard. People age. Some better than others. That is just life. If you were a fan of Lein when she was on the show, you should just accept her as is and be appreciative of the entertainment she has brought you, when she was an actress. If you weren't a fan, then the problem is yours, and I would suggest to you to live and let live. I would be willing to bet if we forum members all saw ourselves in real life, the vast majority of us would all be as regular and as ordinary looking as Lein looks now.
 
Personally, I find it pretty callous and shallow to be slamming Jennifer Lein over her appearance. Ever consider that maybe she has a medical condition causing her weight gain? Maybe it is depression? Maybe its just genetics? Maybe she is dressing down intentionally specifically because she doesn't want to deal with stalkers, which do happen to actresses regardless of how well known they are (remember that Designing Women girl from the 90s? She was KILLED by a stalker, and now I can't even remember her name, sadly), more than the public is aware. Or maybe it is nothing at all, and she is comfortable with her appearance, in which case, it's her business, and her business alone.

Whatever the reason, Lein is not in show business anymore, and should not be held to a movie star\model standard. People age. Some better than others. That is just life. If you were a fan of Lein when she was on the show, you should just accept her as is and be appreciative of the entertainment she has brought you, when she was an actress. If you weren't a fan, then the problem is yours, and I would suggest to you to live and let live. I would be willing to bet if we forum members all saw ourselves in real life, the vast majority of us would all be as regular and as ordinary looking as Lein looks now.


I'm guessing Exodus isn't a woman Antiquityscion. And I'm pretty sure he isn't post menapausal or he might be cutting us females some slack! :techman:

I don't know if this is the actress you're talking about but Rebecca Shaeffer was one of the deaths that forced stalking laws to be changed in California.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Schaeffer

She was in a film with Robert Beltran not long before she was murdered. A terrible tragedy and it was good to see some serious changes made after that happened.

Chuckling :)
 
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