Handicaps

[Myasishchev]

While the fundamental nature of consciousness is still a mystery (albeit subject to some interesting and testable hypotheses), and the nature of language acquisition is likewise, the nature of linguistic understanding isn't. I understand English because I have been exposed to and have learned the vocabulary and the rules of English.

Any communication method is going to rely on syntactic and semantic content, neither of which are likely to be understood without exposure to input in that communication method. This is the poverty of the stimulus problem I mentioned above--it's already miraculous that children manage to pick up language in the time they do, because of the limited exposure.

I don't like treating telepathy being treated like a universal translator. I'll accept, at best, that telepaths are very fast language learners.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Yes, in order to understand english you need to know the language, but the point is, you UNDERSTAND the concepts - you don't merely process them without being the wiser.

A computer can process mathematcal equations very well, but he doesn't understand them - unlike you.

As I said - a huge qualitative difference.
One can easily argue that all roads lead to Rome - all languages are merely tools that lead to understanding. And understanding, much like consciousness, is a commonality among sentients.
In other words, with telepathy you don't comunicate words, you comunicate directly the concetps.

PS - What "interesting and testable hypotheses" regarding sentience are you referring to?

 

[Myasishchev]

The classical at-some-level-of-complexity-equals-consciousness, and Penrose's quantum computing hypotheses, respectively.

The various complexity hypotheses remain neither proven nor disproven, since we have not yet developed non-biological hardware and software that is remotely as complex as a human. Once we do, we can test this.

It's been a while since I've read Roger Penrose's The Emperor's New Mind, but the main gist was that a classical, purely-algorithmic computer model would not explain consciousness, hence quantum mechanical principles had to be invoked, and he tied the understanding of human consciousness and its non-algorithmic properties to a correct quantum gravity theory. Like above, this is equally testable by the building of classical/quantum hybrid computers of sufficient hardware/software complexity to blah blah blah.

The brain-as-a-quantum-computer is not a widely held hypothetical position, although it's interesting to think about.

 

[indolover]

since the Federation values tolerance and essentially is Enlightenment values in space, why would they mistreat the disabled? Even in the real world, and not in an era where we have evolved like in the 24th century Trek universe, we don't condone mistreating the disabled. So surely in their society, they would not either. This is coupled with their advanced medical science/technology.

As for other races/powers, well Klingon medicine is primitive compared to Federation medicine. Also, even though (seemingly) Klingon society is controlled by the noble/warrior class (of which Worf and Martok were a part of, Worf by birth and Martok by merit in being a skilled officer) a disabled person would detract in Klingons being able to fight and to conquer, which is what Klingons were born to do as they say themselves. For this reason, Kahless may not have taught Klingons to value persons who could not fight or be warriors.

And Cardassians? Well, Cardassian society seems to be based on authoritarianism and loyalty to the state, so it's hardly a liberal paradise. Cardassians probably have little tolerance to any group that is a burden to the state.

I think Romulans may also discriminate, since they seem like a discriminatory species who believe in the purity of their race.

For other Federation cultures though, they're probably similar to that of Earth, at least the core/founding members. Probably one major reason for the founding of the Federation in Archer's day was that Earth, Vulcan, Tellar and Andor had similar social and political values. Vulcans for one did not discriminate against their own (as humans did not then) and generally were peaceful (as humans were then also).

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

since the Federation values tolerance and essentially is Enlightenment values in space, why would they mistreat the disabled? Even in the real world, and not in an era where we have evolved like in the 24th century Trek universe, we don't condone mistreating the disabled. So surely in their society, they would not either. This is coupled with their advanced medical science/technology.

As for other races/powers, well Klingon medicine is primitive compared to Federation medicine. Also, even though (seemingly) Klingon society is controlled by the noble/warrior class (of which Worf and Martok were a part of, Worf by birth and Martok by merit in being a skilled officer) a disabled person would detract in Klingons being able to fight and to conquer, which is what Klingons were born to do as they say themselves. For this reason, Kahless may not have taught Klingons to value persons who could not fight or be warriors.

And Cardassians? Well, Cardassian society seems to be based on authoritarianism and loyalty to the state, so it's hardly a liberal paradise. Cardassians probably have little tolerance to any group that is a burden to the state.

I think Romulans may also discriminate, since they seem like a discriminatory species who believe in the purity of their race.

For other Federation cultures though, they're probably similar to that of Earth, at least the core/founding members. Probably one major reason for the founding of the Federation in Archer's day was that Earth, Vulcan, Tellar and Andor had similar social and political values. Vulcans for one did not discriminate against their own (as humans did not then) and generally were peaceful (as humans were then also).

I'm pretty sure Romulans do, like I said before, remember Bochra's comment in The Enemy? He was shocked that Geordi's parents let him live despite his blindness.

Here's a thought. We know Cardassians have done some genetic manipulation, although we don't know if they did it to their people...but if they did, it would be quite Cardassian to 'augment' physically or even mentally disabled individuals as a way to a) create a stronger soldier and increase teir understanding of their genome and b) allow the disabled person to fulfill their duty to the state.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Either augment them...or experiment on them. I would not put that past someone like Crell Moset. Though in fairness I suspect the Obsidian Order would be the ones doing that and that the average Cardassian would be revolted and angered at the idea as they should be.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Yes, by 'very Cardassian' I meant the political system and Order and stuff, not the average populace.

 

[Timo]

In "Empok Nor", experimental augmentation was definitely something the Cardassians did. It did surprise even Garak a little, but it was Central Command's doing, not Obsidian Order's. I gather the government would be able to put a positive spin on it, and when the Cardassian government spins something, it keeps on spinning... So such experimentation might be public knowledge, and widely accepted (not accepting would be unwise!), even if this particular experiment was unknown even to Garak.

The augmented soldiers in "Empok Nor" may have been regular Torals chosen because of good starting qualifications or patriotic volunteer spirit, or perhaps disadvantaged individuals who were in need of a boost anyway. Or they may have been criminals condemned into serving as experimental subjects. Difficult to tell. It doesn't look as if Cardassians would be averse to procedures that take certain individuals above and beyond the Cardassian norm, though - even though this is the very fear that seems to curtail UFP research.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

Empok Nor didn't feature genetic augmentation, though, iirc. It just ripped off the drug (or the near-death-experience hallucination of a drug, or whatever it was) from Jacob's Ladder.

Doesn't really say whether gene-augmentation is covered under the Cardassian Union health plan. Although that would be kinda cool; I sometimes wonder if the other big powers do permit augment-type therapies, but hit a point of diminishing returns where genetic engineering of existing material provides little benefit. (Or, if they hit a transhuman--transcardassian--wall, and stopped just a little less short than the humans/Vulcans/et al in their great wisdom.)

 

[Timo]

Larry Niven never thought of this himself, I believe - but when he opened the sandbox of his cat-people to other writers, they quickly came up with the idea that the Feline Xindi with their barbie-dumb females and muscular males were the result of self-engineering where sexual stereotypes had been used as the aimpoints. It would be fun for Trek to explore the cats further, this aspect somehow included.

I wonder what other Trek species might be the result of engineering to the standards of local fiction, religion or other ideology? Perhaps Klingon foreheads are a tribal tattoo created by genetic means, but the Klingons themselves have forgotten about this because several other tribal ideas are also genetically engineered into them. In fact, most of the weird faces we see might be aesthetic-cosmetic surgery performed specieswide and genetically; Bajorans of yore simply loved their wrinkle makeup so much that they made it biologically mandatory at some point... And Nausicaans grew their facial teeth in order to improve their image in the fierce bodyguard/bully market.

Timo Saloniemi