Had Sisko Always Been Command Track

[Timo]

According to Memory Alpha, she was there for 8 years, which doesn't exactly jive with Julian only being there for four.

Perhaps Crusher learned medicine at the Academy whereas Bashir learned it elsewhere beforehand?

There are two canon dialogue tidbits on medical academies: in DS9 "Rivals", a Starfleet Medical Academy is mentioned, while in VOY "Nothing Human", a Federation Medical Academy is. (Every other reference from Memory Alpha is completely noncanonical, mere speculation on how a random mention of an "Academy" should be interpreted when relating to the various medical heroes.) So possibly Crusher attended the former (as indicated on her "Conundrum" Okudagram), thus making her Starfleet studies longer, while Bashir attended the latter or neither.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lighthammer]

Like I said, Bashir had a whole additional 4 years between Starfleet Academy and DS9.

I think its very easy just to make the logical deduction that he attended Starfleet, then attended their medical program and for whatever reason Crusher's was chunked together as one long stay and Bashir's wasn't. Heck, there's almost 20 years between the time Beverly went to the Academy and Bashir did. Its also possible things just changed (for an in universe explanation) how they do things.

 

[Timo]

We don't know when Bashir entered the usual SF Academy (only that he did) or when he graduated (only that he did), so the extra four years or whatever could be slotted in various places. We have no clear-cut reason to think that Bashir would have graduated at a rank higher than the usual Ensign, so slotting the extra years after graduation and before DS9 probably works best.

But we also know Bashir was still at the Academy as late as 2367, according to "Explorers" ("four years ago" from that 3rd season viewpoint). Or at least that he was at a New Year party that preceded his graduating. Perhaps he completed Starfleet Academy by 2363 and then did medicine at Starfleet Medical Academy, Federation Medical Academy or some other Academy for the next four years?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lighthammer]

Meh, I'm generally pulling my info off Memory Alpha where this debate is concerned which is intended to be all canon info (pulled from what happened on screen, specifically).

That being said --- although I find it a bit hard to believe this info, Memory Alpha also suggests Tasha graduated from the academy and was posted directly as LT with the enterprise as her first post.

A captain DOES have their pull, but I do find it remarkably hard to believe Picard would pluck newly graduated officer as his chief tactical / security officer unless someone can parse some rationale argument that he did so only because he ALSO had Worf as some unidentified post along with her who DID have experience (yea, I am not buying this either!).

 

[Timo]

Memory Alpha also suggests Tasha graduated from the academy and was posted directly as LT with the enterprise as her first post.

Umm, how so? Picard in "Legacy" was said to have asked for the transfer of Yar to the E-D from her current Starfleet assignment, not from the Academy; it was said Yar's previous CO, the skipper of the ship where Yar was said to have served at the time, owed Picard a favor.

We don't know Yar's rank at the time of the transfer, but we next see Yar coming aboard the E-D in the "All Good Things..." flashback with full Lt pips on her collar. Supposedly, she was serving on the previous ship in 2363, then, having had plenty of time to complete her Academy studies (for which there of course is no "Conundrum" derived date, because the character was dead by then).

Memory Alpha jumps to conclusions on many things, but it doesn't appear to suggest the direct Academy-to-Lt-and-E-D thing at all.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Longinus]

We don't know when Bashir entered the usual SF Academy (only that he did) or when he graduated (only that he did), so the extra four years or whatever could be slotted in various places. We have no clear-cut reason to think that Bashir would have graduated at a rank higher than the usual Ensign, so slotting the extra years after graduation and before DS9 probably works best.

But we also know Bashir was still at the Academy as late as 2367, according to "Explorers" ("four years ago" from that 3rd season viewpoint). Or at least that he was at a New Year party that preceded his graduating. Perhaps he completed Starfleet Academy by 2363 and then did medicine at Starfleet Medical Academy, Federation Medical Academy or some other Academy for the next four years?

Wouldn't it make more sense to first go a regular med-school and then to the SF Academy to take the 'shit all officers have to know' courses? I assume that people who already have an appliacable profesional degree can get credit for those studies in the Academy.

Does there have to be extra four years? Was it stated what Bashir did before DS9?

 

[Timo]

There's no particular reason to believe that any Star Trek studies would take a fixed amount of time, because we see that smart people can do things faster. With Bashir, we don't know of any timetable we would have to observe here, other than Bashir not having listened to the graduation speech of his classmate Elizabeth Lense in 2367 yet, but being assigned to DS9 in 2368 already.

We don't know whether DS9 was Bashir's first postgraduate assignment; we only know he requested to be sent there (not whether he requested DS9 as his first assignment, or whether he was granted such a request). We do know that Bashir was already a junior Lieutenant when reaching DS9, while we have seen other medical personnel (to wit, Nurse and eventual Doctor Ogawa) wear just the Ensign pip.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Longinus]

Doesn't DS9 start 2369? So if Bashir graduated at 2367 he had two years to do something else.

Timo, can you elaborate on what was exactly said in "Explorers"? I cannot remember, and Memory Alpha is too vague.

 

[Timo]

Sorry about the confusion; in the TNG era, one might well argue that each season straddles the border between two calendar years, just like the seasons at Paramount do. So TNG would start with 2363-64 as S1, and DS9 would start with 2368-69 as S1, "Emissary" falling squarely on the first of these years.

In "Explorers", Bashir has to face his classmate Lense who may have entered the study facility (called "medical school") at different times but did graduate in the same lot, with Lense giving the valedictorian speech and Bashir preceding it with his salutatorian speech.

Their one and only (near-) meeting took place in 2367 or 2368, depending on your preferences, according to this exchange:

Lense: "Well, I thought you were Andorian."
Bashir: "Andorian?"
Lense: "Someone pointed out an Andorian to me at a party and said that that was Julian Bashir. It was New Year's Eve at Bruce Lucier's, four years ago."

This must have been before the graduation where the mix-up still prevented Lense from correctly identifying Bashir, even though Bashir thought this incomprehensible:

Bashir: "Didn't you see me give my speech at graduation?"
Lense: "No, I was backstage waiting to give my speech. I was so nervous I almost passed out."

A bit odd for the conventionally named western human Elizabeth Lense to consider the also rather conventionally named Julian Bashir an alien... Unless it's common for aliens to spell their names the human way at this "medical school", or even assume human names for whatever reason. But I digress.

The above timetable allows for just under a year between the graduation speeches and DS9, as "Explorers" is from late S3. But we don't know whether this refers to Starfleet Academy graduation or something like Starfleet Medical Academy or Federation Medical Academy or St. Gurglepop Phlox Medical School graduation. Quite possibly, Julian had graduated from SF Academy before taking the medical studies, meaning he'd match Crusher in study years but might have had a different rank development as the result.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

Hmm...I thought it took around eleven years for someone to become a M.D (at the earliest).

4 years of college to get a bachelor's degree
4 years of (Starfleet?) medical school
3 years of residency (minimum)

 

[Timo]

In a world where somebody with a completely empty head can become a communications officer in a few weeks?

At the very least, I'd halve the estimate, on account of these future kids learning calculus as preteens and whatnot.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lighthammer]

In a world where somebody with a completely empty head can become a communications officer in a few weeks?

At the very least, I'd halve the estimate, on account of these future kids learning calculus as preteens and whatnot.

Timo Saloniemi

You've brought that up before and I wonder how much merit it has taking into account the longer range of information that dropped.

I assume you're pulling that factoid from "When the Bough Breaks" (S01E17). Later in DS9, we learn Jake is learning Algebra at about the inappropriate age for today's standard. I suppose one could argue its college level algebra by that point, but even so.

The one truism that I am making a point here is that Trek writers are horrible about staying on the same page with background information about characters / events :-\.

 

[Timo]

I suppose one could argue its college level algebra by that point, but even so.

I guess the better argument, in the sense of preempting all sorts of contradictions from the uncontrolled writing, is that people in the 24th century no longer believe in uniform education. When there's so much to be taught, different people learn different things and simply ignore the vast majority of teachable knowledge out there. Or at least are in no hurry to learn it in their first twenty years or so, when they have a hundred more to burn.

Fixed-length curricula sound less and less likely, then - especially when the potentially quite conservative Starfleet is the one explicitly seen engaging in flexible-length education for its officers.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

In a world where somebody with a completely empty head can become a communications officer in a few weeks?

Probably more an excercise of remembering what was lost, IMO. Mental theraphy.

At the very least, I'd halve the estimate, on account of these future kids learning calculus as preteens and whatnot.

Unless the goal posts are also moved (calculus now considered an elementary course in the 24th-Century).

 

[Timo]

It's quite possible that future science has determined that learning calculus is the easiest and most intuitive at that age, and grows more difficult in later years - much like certain century-old beliefs about teaching languages are currently challenged and earlier-is-better arguments put forth.

But future science might have found similar shortcuts to the learning of medicine or comparable fields. Or then it's simply a technology issue: rather than inefficient lectures, one gets the facts from interactive media - and needs much fewer facts (relatively or even absolutely) because the entire pool of facts is now available to one, pre-digested, through various expert programs and whatnot, and cramming it into one's brain would only be counterproductive.

Any good scifi ought to tackle the problems of general education in a world that offers way too much for any poor pupil's brain to cope with, and grows worse in that respect by the day. Should only absolutely necessary things be taught, tailored for each pupil so as not to overload him? Would novel education techniques help? Should no facts be taught at all, because the time would be much better spent teaching the pupil to learn by himself? Centralized classroom-style education obviously survives in Star Trek, but AFAWK only as a hobby project for the well-intentioned but potentially utterly incompetent Keiko O'Brien...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lighthammer]

You know --- just something to toss out there --- at least where medicine is concerned.

Something I find dreadfully saddening is most colleges of medicine needlessly complicate most of their studies currently, today. Some could make a claim that big pharma pushes that ideologue to make it easier for them to earn money, if you buy into that rational; less I digress.

There are certainly ways to enhance educational programs simply not being done today.

Just now, I think its a stretch suggesting calculus is easier to learn at younger ages, but if my example proves anything, it does illustrate fundamental shifts in how education is tackled can absolutely shift rate of learning.