Hackers skewed climate-change emails: scientists

[PlixTixiplik]

Keeping in mind how all previous negative projections (banning CFCs will increase costs, regulating SO2 will cause electricity prices to increase...) have consistently been wrong!

*cough check your bills cough*

Really?

The industry predicted this for SO2 cap and trade.

Mr. Addison warned that rate-payers in states with many coal-fired power plants would face particularly high increases. Consumers in 10 states—Alabama, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Missouri, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, and West Virginia—would face utility rate hikes of 5.5 percent to 13.1 percent by 2009. Mr. Addison concluded that these calculations “underestimate the rate shock that would actually occur.”

What actually happened.

Since then, national electricity rates have actually declined by an average of 19 percent from 1990 to 2006 (2006 dollars).

Of the 10 states Mr. Addison specifically identified that would suffer some of the highest rate hikes, the average electricity price in 2006 dollars was 35 percent lower in 2006.

Oops - maybe you should check your bills.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

Oops - maybe you should check your bills.

I have. Over the course of the past 3 yearsin the same structure, my overall consumption has been pretty constant in winter months, yet the rate increases each year, mostly in taxes. I don't know where you are, or what fuel you use to heat your home, but down here in the trenches, it's how close to the next paycheck I can make the current one go is what counts.

 

[PlixTixiplik]

Oops - maybe you should check your bills.

I have. Over the course of the past 3 yearsin the same structure, my overall consumption has been pretty constant in winter months, yet the rate increases each year, mostly in taxes. I don't know where you are, or what fuel you use to heat your home, but down here in the trenches, it's how close to the next paycheck I can make the current one go is what counts.

What does that have to do with regulation of SO2 under cap-and-trade? In Virginia, electricity rates decreased by 35% from 1990-2006, when the industry claimed they would increase by 4.7%. And now the same people are making claims about economic collapse from regulation of CO2.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

What does that have to do with regulation of SO2 under cap-and-trade? In Virginia, electricity rates decreased by 35% from 1990-2006, when the industry claimed they would increase by 4.7%. And now the same people are making claims about economic collapse from regulation of CO2.

Dear sir, you obviously miss the subtle difference between "rate" and "taxes". The bottom line on my bills have increased every year, and the amount of consumption was realtively constant. There's more to the puzzle than the advertised cost per kilowatt hour, but what's that matter to you since you're cherry picking the details that match your view.

Electricity isn't the only form of power, and anyone that heats their home exclusively with electricity outside of subtropical areas probably needs to reevaluate their strategy or seek counselling unless their house is covered with oh.. say... R-5000 insulation.

The cluephone is ringing, why don't you pick it up?

 

[PlixTixiplik]

What does that have to do with regulation of SO2 under cap-and-trade? In Virginia, electricity rates decreased by 35% from 1990-2006, when the industry claimed they would increase by 4.7%. And now the same people are making claims about economic collapse from regulation of CO2.

Dear sir, you obviously miss the subtle difference between "rate" and "taxes". The bottom line on my bills have increased every year, and the amount of consumption was realtively constant. There's more to the puzzle than the advertised cost per kilowatt hour, but what's that matter to you since you're cherry picking the details that match your view.

Electricity isn't the only form of power, and anyone that heats their home exclusively with electricity outside of subtropical areas probably needs to reevaluate their strategy or seek counselling unless their house is covered with oh.. say... R-5000 insulation.

The cluephone is ringing, why don't you pick it up?

My only point is that industry claims that regulation will cause electricity rates to skyrocket have been proven to be wrong. Fortunately for my case, the data back me up. Industry think tanks predicted that the cost-per-kwh would increase, but they decreased. Did you even read the link? Of course electricity isn't the only form of power, but it's pretty disingenuous to talk about home natural gas heating in the context of acid rain or regulation of SO2, as the regulations only affected coal-fired power plants.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

YOU are talking about SO2 specifically, the rest of us are talking about the global warming farce, and how the cost of additional regulation comes out of our pocket.

 

[Marc]

YOU are talking about SO2 specifically, the rest of us are talking about the global warming farce, and how the cost of additional regulation comes out of our pocket.

Because the tax payer has to cough up for the corporate welfare for those businesses that have gotten away with poluting for years.

 

[PlixTixiplik]

YOU are talking about SO2 specifically, the rest of us are talking about the global warming farce, and how the cost of additional regulation comes out of our pocket.

But that's the rub - how do you know that there will be additional costs? People 20 years ago also "knew" that regulating SO2 would increase costs.

This is why the acid rain conversation is so relevant, because 20 years ago people said the exact same thing about SO2 regulations. It will just increase the cost to the consumer! But it didn't, and in fact consumer costs were reduced because of increased efficiency etc.

It is possible that carbon regulation will increase costs, but it is equally possible that it will not. And even if it does increase energy costs slightly, it is highly likely that savings in other areas will make up the difference. For example, the benefits of SO2 regulation (including $70 billion per year in health savings) outweighed the costs by 40:1! At this point it's not possible to say with any confidence that regulation will actually hurt the average person.

 

[Gertch]

the rest of us are talking about the global warming farce,

http://tinyurl.com/yzvyoxh

In a statement on its website, the CRU said: “We do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (quality controlled and homogenised) data.”

The CRU is the world’s leading centre for reconstructing past climate and temperatures. Climate change sceptics have long been keen to examine exactly how its data were compiled. That is now impossible.

Roger Pielke, professor of environmental studies at Colorado University, discovered data had been lost when he asked for original records. “The CRU is basically saying, ‘Trust us’. So much for settling questions and resolving debates with science,” he said.

I think 'scientists destroying raw data without releasing it makes Climategate officially a coverup.

As I said earlier, I don't blame those that were duped and played as fools for their man made global warming beliefs in this fiasco. The data was falsified.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

Hence my use of the word "farce".

 

[iguana_tonante]

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/11/26/climate-change-hack.html I'd just like to see these religious-like fanatical scientists show a pair and allow their work to be openly debated and questioned..... if their beliefs in global warming are valid and true, then they will hold up to being challenged.... if not, then we know we're being BS'd.

Wow, Praxius, you just have some arguments that we never saw before, or that haven't been debunked before, or that haven't been shown to be bullshit over and over and over.

But I guess knowing what you are talking about is just too much to ask. Go read some actual papers instead of parroting stuff you find on blogs and magazines.

 

[PlixTixiplik]

So Gertch, which of the following papers contain falsified data?

High-resolution Holocene climate record from Maxwell Bay, South Shetland Islands, Antarctica

Late-Holocene paleoenvironmental change at mid-elevation on the Caribbean slope of the Cordillera Central, Dominican Republic: a multi-site, multi-proxy analysis

Temperature changes on the Tibetan Plateau during the past 600 years inferred from ice cores and tree rings

Environmental change in northern Belize since the latest Pleistocene

Long-term multi-proxy climate reconstructions and dynamics in South America (LOTRED-SA): State of the art and perspectives

Climate variability during the last 1000 years inferred from Andean ice cores: A review of methodology and recent results

Climate signals in high elevation tree-rings from the semiarid Andes of north-central Chile: Responses to regional and large-scale variability

Palaeoenvironmental changes during the last 1600 years inferred from the sediment record of a cirque lake in southern Patagonia (Laguna Las Vizcachas, Argentina)

Calibrating n-alkane Sphagnum proxies in sub-Arctic Scandinavia

Observations on the relationship between the Antarctic coastal diatoms Thalassiosira antarctica Comber and Porosira glacialis (Grunow) Jorgensen and sea ice concentrations during the late Quaternary

Palaeolimnology of Lake Hess (Patagonia, Argentina): multi-proxy analyses of short sediment cores

Once you're done with those, there are more than 20,000 other papers indexed at Georef you can work through.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

Gee, Plix, I guess you missed the part where your guys swept the raw data under the carpet.

 

[PlixTixiplik]

Gee, Plix, I guess you missed the part where your guys swept the raw data under the carpet.

What a nefarious conspiracy - they discarded paper and magnetic tapes more than 20 years ago, when governments and funding agencies didn't care about climate research, in meticulous preparation for a giant fraud far in the future. How gullible do you have to be to believe that?

Did NASA, NOAA, and every other agency also discard their original data, which incidentally give similar results? How about the satellite records - still available and also showing warming? The independent proxy record data published in hundreds of studies, several of which I cited?

I do find the death throes of the "manufactured doubt" crowd hilarious though.

Also, you obviously don't understand the quote in your signature.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

-But I guess knowing what you are talking about is just too much to ask. Go read some actual papers instead of parroting stuff you find on blogs and magazines.

Better yet, please stop watching Faux Noise-it's rotting your brain and causing you to drink your own wastewater as if it were apple juice.

 

[Johnny Rico]

*AHEM* I hate to say I told you so, but...I FRAKKING TOLD YOU SO!

This whole Global Warming RELIGION...(and that's what it is) is a HOAX!!!! It's an attempt by a select group of activist scientists, and sadly politicians to PROFIT off of everyone's fear that this THEORY could be real. How much has Gore made off of this? All the while being a huge hypocrit on the matter with his lavish lifestyle?

I said years ago that Global Warming (ie. radical environmentalism) is this Millenium's Communism. And that is for some global "climate" panel to control what every human being does. Fuck that! I'm gonna still burn as many incandescent light bulbs as I want. Drive my 5.9 L V8 gas guzzling 10-year old truck, and spray hydrocarbons into the air until my heart's content.

You know it's not just the fact that these emails have showed that the scientists wrote that they were extremely disappointed that they couldn't account for the lack of increase in temperatures, but they have destroyed all of the raw data that could prove this matter one way or another, not to mention that one scientist physically threatened a skeptic scientist. Gee, that's professional....

My friends, you have been duped into believing thug science. Thug science as in, "the consensus is in, and the matter is settled, and you're stupid or "un-peer reviewed" if you don't agree with us."

This sounds like the freakin' mob!

 

[cultcross]

Is there anything you don't consider this millennium's communism?

 

[Bad Bishop]

-But I guess knowing what you are talking about is just too much to ask. Go read some actual papers instead of parroting stuff you find on blogs and magazines.

Better yet, please stop watching Faux Noise-it's rotting your brain and causing you to drink your own wastewater as if it were apple juice.

Damn that Fox News! How dare they invite climate change skeptics to their shows! This must be stopped!

 

[Johnny Rico]

Better yet, please stop watching Faux Noise-it's rotting your brain and causing you to drink your own wastewater as if it were apple juice.

Why would I do that? I want the truth and I'm not afraid of it. And therefore, Fox News is the only news agency where you get the truth. Whether you like it or not, Fox has been voted the "most trusted news source in the US" and its ratings show for it. Its ratings are higher than every other news network COMBINED at any given time slot, including the basic network news.

 

[Johnny Rico]

Is there anything you don't consider this millennium's communism?

Yeah...free market capitalism.