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Gul Dukat

Nyotarules

Vice Admiral
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Sorry if this has been discussed before but would the death of Gul Dukat during the Cardassian - Klingon war have prevented the AQ war with the Dominion? Or would the Founders use someone else to be their Cardassian puppet?
 
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Whut...no. The founders never gave a damn about Dukat or the Cardassians. It was clear from the beginning. The war was going to happen sooner or latter once the Bajorans started a colony in the Gamma Quadrant.
 
There would've been a war alright. I suppose the changelings are a pretty hands-on type would've just simply taken over a broken Cardassia using another puppet as their proxy. It's hard to see them mounting the war they did without parasiting off at least one AQ power mind you.
 
So were the Bajorans naive to start a colony on someone else territory? The more I watch Star Trek I believe Starfleet mission of exploration is one of the causes of the wars they encounter. Their desire for exploration, however benevolent is just another form of colonisation. Is this why the Klingons found the Genesis device a threat?
 
According to ISB, the build up to the war started with The Adversary. Along with Home Front and Paradise Lost (which should have opened Season 4), events would build up over the course of the season until the war was declared at the end of Season 4. The introduction of Michael Dorn required more than a few changes in order to justify attention to Klingon issues to the series. Moreover, ISB never intended that Dukat be rehabilitated, that he was always essentially evil. The shifts in Dukat's arc were necessitated by the contingencies of season 4. In that context, the war would have gone forward, with or without Dukat.
 
Once the Dominion understood that the Wormhole lead to a whole new world of unruly 'solids', they were always going to go to war with the AQ.
 
So were the Bajorans naive to start a colony on someone else territory? The more I watch Star Trek I believe Starfleet mission of exploration is one of the causes of the wars they encounter. Their desire for exploration, however benevolent is just another form of colonisation. Is this why the Klingons found the Genesis device a threat?

I don't think they knew much about the Dominion at the time and that Dominion Space didn't encompass the Idran System, at least not by the events of The Jem'Hadar. They just didn't want anyone from the Alpha Quadrant to start colonize in their neighborhood.

Once the Dominion understood that the Wormhole lead to a whole new world of unruly 'solids', they were always going to go to war with the AQ.
They were already aware. I can't remember when but when I was doing a rewatch few months back, someone said something about being aware of the wormhole already early on.
 
Yeah, the Hunters and Tosk came through the wormhole in one of the earliest episodes. I don't know if they were aware of it before that, though.

(And yes, I'm aware that it was never mentioned onscreen that they are members of the Dominion, but they're supposed to be, and that's good enough for me. :shrug: )
 
I don't think they knew much about the Dominion at the time and that Dominion Space didn't encompass the Idran System, at least not by the events of The Jem'Hadar. They just didn't want anyone from the Alpha Quadrant to start colonize in their neighborhood.
The Skreans found the wormhole when fleeing Dominion space. The sense I get is that they were expanding toward the wormhole, reaching it somewhere in season 2.
 
The Dominion were the colonizers. They very likely had changelings installed in key positions on every planet in their domain. Theirs was a policy of expansionism cloaked under a guise of isolationism - this gave them the rhetorical narrative of victimhood, while in practice, exercising the very real imperialistic expansion throughout maximum range of space.

The DQ-AQ wormhole just opened up an unexploited pocket within grasp of their fleet supply stations. Once the wormhole was discovered, either through the actions of aliens, or perhaps their own young seedlings, they would have exploited every corner to their fullest capabilities. They are not referred to as the Dominion by bitter adversaries; they refer to themselves as the Dominion - a word defined as "dominance or power through (legal) authority," which in sci fi terms could be updated as "enforceable authority".

Odo would have inadvertantly started the war sooner or later.

Now as for the Bajorans colonizing - it was an empty, ostensibly unclaimed, undiscovered planet. Is that imperialism? I doubt it; because colonists in these episodes tend to be small, independent groups of explorers and squatters - and not official expeditions bent on territorialization and exploitation - characteristics rightly levied at the Dominion, in spite of their careful cultivation of plausible deniability.

Planets that want nothing more than to be left alone don't send imperial fleets to take over a region of independent worlds. The whole "Solid vs Shifter" thing was just to facilitate the objectification of their acquisitions. For all we know their history was entirely fabrication - even more likely when you consider the possibility they had once been solids themselves! It wasn't the Solid they had an issue with. It was Raw Power, pure and simple. They just needed clear divisions, and rallying the Shifters was really all they needed, regardless of what shape everyone else was.
 
The Dominion aren't colonisers though. They do some hands-on work by sending out saboteurs but they get the Vorta to administer their territory and the Jem-Hadar to enforce it whilst the changelings stay at home -- aside from the aforementioned acts of sabotage and the occasional personal appearance.

The bajoran colonisation just flagged to the Dominion that they were there.. The changelings are out to bring order to unruly solids and they are willing to extend their sphere of influence to any solids within range.
 
I don't think Dukat was a Dominion puppet. Dukat was man enough to hold his own vs. Weyoun. On the other hand, Damar was not man enough and he very much was a Dominion puppet.
 
Dukat was a puppet, he just did not realise it. HE thought he could control the Dominions influence, he was using them to make Cardessia great. They were using him to make ALL solids, including Cardessia, subjugated. By the time Cardessian rulers like Damar realised this, it was too late. I am not sure if Damar had a change of heart because Cardessia became a puppet state or because he disapproved of the whole Dominion war against the Alpha &
Beta quadrants. Or both.
 
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Damar was not man enough and he very much was a Dominion puppet.

I'd say that's a little unfair to Damar, I think with Damar and what made his character so interesting, was the fact that Damar saw what happened to Dukat and to a certain level Damar realized early on when he became the Cardassian Leader, that his people were puppets in the Dominions game, which is why he became an alcoholic, he felt helpless and powerless to change the situation he found himself in.

But ultimately got fed up and inspired his people to rise up against, what had become essentially their occupiers.
 
Neither Dukat and Damar were puppets precisely. They had leverage in their relationship with the Dominion. Dukat had every intent to throw off the Dominion when the time was ripe and Damar virtually derailed the Dominion war effort after a poor start with his revolt. Puppets are types with no leverage and with no spirit of independence. Damar's inconspicuous successor fell neatly into the puppet category.
 
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