Gul Dukat was a good guy

[john titor]

He was portrayed ultimately as evil, however I believe he was just someone who had a deep insecurity issue. He was given all this power to control the Bajoran population who antagonized him with their smugness (in his words) and as a result his insecurity was heightened to the extent that with the combination of having a lot of administrative power, he committed some atrocities, although its unclear as to whether he was just following orders from higher ups, (I'm not a ds9 afficianado so if someone wants to clarify this please do).

Dukat in his conversations with Sisko et al revealed himself to be a deep thoughtful individual who was a product of cardassian militarization, he operated on the tightrope of logic, protecting cardassias interests and trying to be ethical, as shaped by his experiences as a military officer. So while he was flawed in other words, he wasn't evil. We can see this in his grief over his daughters death. In conjunction with a probable brutal upbringing on cardassia, a toxic military culture, immense power, insecurity and his loss, he concluded, naturally as anyone would, that the universe was a cruel indifferent place. So he gave himself to the pah wraiths, if the world was going to be evil to him, where survival and success depended on callousness and ruthless behaviour then he was going to go with the flow, this being stemmed by further insecurity. So lets not blame Dukat, he was a conflicted victim at the end of the day, who tried to do the right thing but was constantly thwarted by his circumstances.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

Let down by the writing in Season 7...

'nuff said.

 

[Anwar]

Eh, I always saw him as evil. Affably Evil, but still evil.

 

[Photon]

Eh, I always saw him as evil. Affably Evil, but still evil.

I agree. He was (the) (d)evil.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Dukat was not a good guy.

I personally believe everyone is simply a product of how they've been conditioned, raised, treated. That doesn't mean we can say they're "good". I certainly don't feel hate towards anyone; I don't believe a person can ever be "evil", as "evil" can only apply to actions or beliefs or ways of thinking as they are evaluated by others. In the case of Dukat, his actions and justifications and modes of thinking can clearly and easily be labeled as "evil". He never overcame those modes of thinking, those poor justifications or those actions. He never embraced his (many) chances at becoming something better, something other than the distasteful character he was. I am reminded of G'Kar's epiphany in "Babylon Five": "You have the opportunity, here and now to choose, to become something greater, and nobler, and more difficult than you have been before". Dukat refused, time and time again, to embrace his chances to do this. His life was therefore one of what many- myself included- would call "evil". I wouldn't call him evil, simply because, as I said, I don't believe people can ever be described in such terms. However, his life was spent doing the galactic community- Cardassian, Bajoran, Federation, everyone- far, far more harm than good. I think we have no choice but to evaluate him as a force of evil. Yes, he occassionally did the right thing, because anyone can. No-one is "evil". His life and his actions, however, were, and he did nothing to separate himself from his prior actions. He tried to justify the Bajoran occupation to the end, and then insisted that he was the victim because the Bajorans refused to love and appreciate him. There is no way we can call him a "good guy".

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Dukat was NO good guy in this universe, believe me.

Did he have potential to become so? Oh, yes. There came time and time again where he could have chosen a better path. And yet he never did--and in the end he paid the price of his soul, just like a traitor in Dante's Ninth Circle of Hell.

That's the whole tragedy of the character, if you ask me: what happened to him in the seventh season, where he went beyond the point of no return, all could have been averted by one act of choice to stop running from who he could have been. It would have meant allowing himself to feel the weight of his sins, and ultimately that was what Dukat could not do: he was afraid of himself.

As I've observed before in similar threads, the ONLY way this could've happened would be something as extreme as the real-life Road to Damascus revelation experienced by St. Paul (who himself, as you will remember, WAS hellbent on genocide before his conversion to the very religion he persecuted, and believed just as Gul Dukat, that he was doing right in what he did--until he was forced to confront his sins). No doubt he would've had to bear the distrust and anger forever from many, in this case, and he would have to accept that as the penalty for the awful things he did. And no doubt a lot of viewers would've complained big time at a redemption arc, just like they did at the Pah-Wraith arc. But that's the only way it could've been accomplished.

Ziyal's death forced him to the brink--that was his last moment of choice in my opinion before his soul went beyond salvation for good...it could have forced him to really see himself, to see what his actions and what the ruthlessness that he exhibited and trained into others (Damar) had done and to face up to that, or it could've done what it ended up doing and destroyed whatever last connection he had to the part of him that could've been something else.

Dukat, in the end, becomes a tragic character in the old Shakespearian/Miltonean, or Dantean sense...he could have been so much greater, but fell by his own doing. And he cannot be excused, because up until that very last moment when he was crouched over Ziyal, it was his to choose. And after that--the tragedy was that it was irrevocably too late.

(Now, if you'd like to see an AU Dukat who became a much better person, PM me and I can give you the links.)

 

[Navaros]

Dukat definitely was indeed a good guy and the series right up until Waltz bears that out.

Dukat was never evil until they deliberately assasinated his character via shadily retconning a ton of OOC crap onto his past at the end of Waltz, which is unquestionably the biggest fubaring in all of Trek.

 

[john titor]

Dukat definitely was indeed a good guy and the series right up until Waltz bears that out.

Dukat was never evil until they deliberately assasinated his character via shadily retconning a ton of OOC crap onto his past at the end of Waltz, which is unquestionably the biggest fubaring in all of Trek.

Damn right

 

[DevilEyes]

Dukat was not a good guy.

I personally believe everyone is simply a product of how they've been conditioned, raised, treated. That doesn't mean we can say they're "good". I certainly don't feel hate towards anyone; I don't believe a person can ever be "evil", as "evil" can only apply to actions or beliefs or ways of thinking as they are evaluated by others. In the case of Dukat, his actions and justifications and modes of thinking can clearly and easily be labeled as "evil". He never overcame those modes of thinking, those poor justifications or those actions. He never embraced his (many) chances at becoming something better, something other than the distasteful character he was. I am reminded of G'Kar's epiphany in "Babylon Five": "You have the opportunity, here and now to choose, to become something greater, and nobler, and more difficult than you have been before". Dukat refused, time and time again, to embrace his chances to do this. His life was therefore one of what many- myself included- would call "evil". I wouldn't call him evil, simply because, as I said, I don't believe people can ever be described in such terms. However, his life was spent doing the galactic community- Cardassian, Bajoran, Federation, everyone- far, far more harm than good. I think we have no choice but to evaluate him as a force of evil. Yes, he occassionally did the right thing, because anyone can. No-one is "evil". His life and his actions, however, were, and he did nothing to separate himself from his prior actions. He tried to justify the Bajoran occupation to the end, and then insisted that he was the victim because the Bajorans refused to love and appreciate him. There is no way we can call him a "good guy".

^ This.

I really don't understand what's up with this either-or mentality, and the belief that a character has to be either "a good guy" or "true evil". Or that an antagonist has to either have a redemption arc and end up being on "the good guys side", or be made into teh (d)eeeevil. He was more more interesting as someone who, while clearly no nice guy, was multi-faceted and complex, and could play the role of antagonist or ally, depending on the circumstances. The way he was used in "The Maquis", for instance, was brilliant.

The Pah-wraiths storyarc was, IMO, stupid in itself, with or without Dukat, and by tying it up wiht Dukat, Behr and co. simpified and cheapened what used to be complex story, by making the series end into another black-and-white good vs evil showdown, which was a huge disappointment. In the process, they made Dukat act in ways that did not really make much sense - e.g. forgiving Damar completely for the murder of Ziyal while insisting that it was actually Sisko's fault?! WTF? Sisko? What did he have to do with any of it? I expect someone to come up with the answer "well, he was insane", but I find it a sign of extremely lame characterization and sortyelling if you have to make a character insane so you could conviently use his insanity to excuse every absurd development you can come up with.

Anyway, this has been discussed in detail in the "Waltz and Dukat" thread (before it somehow turned into a debate about God, on the last page ) - here is more of what I had to say.

 

[Navaros]

while clearly no nice guy

I would say Dukat clearly is a nice guy. In fact, in his interactions with others, he always displayed far more politeness and consideration for the feelings of the other person than Sisko did. So did Weyoun for that matter, although Weyoun had a mean streak too. But Dukat didn't even have a mean streak prior to his character assasination in Waltz.

It's no contest that Dukat was alot nicer of a guy than Sisko, the hero of the show, was.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

I gotta stand with Nerys Ghemor on this - Dukat was not a good person at all. I have long believed that Dukat's character was about his choices, and he repeatedly chose the paths to greater personal glory than something that would make him a better man. He engaged in self-delusion that he was somehow doing things that would make Bajor a better place while continuing the stripping of the planet's resources, the whoring out of its women to their Cardassian occupiers, the destruction of the things that had made the Bajoran people what they were. Sure, he claimed he showed the Bajorans compassion, but even when your occupier shows you compassion, HE IS STILL YOUR OCCUPIER.

We saw that Dukat could be a better man during the times when he was allied with the DS9 crew. To me, that makes the fact that he chose to go after personal power once more later on all the more tragic for his character. He could have made amends and become a decent man, but he wanted to be remembered. Waltz revealed how he hated the Bajorans, which is what drew him to the Pai-Wraiths. The Bajorans worship the Prophets and consider the Pai-Wraiths their equivilant of the devil. So Dukat makes his deal with the devil and is used to attack the Prophets. This closes off any avenue to the Dominon Dukat could have had - note Weyoun's reaction to learning that the wormhole has been closed. So he fully embraces the Pai-Wraiths, as they're the only path he has to that greater glory he so desires.

Dukat was a character of choices, and in the final analysis, he rarely made choices that would qualify him as a 'good guy.' The only choice offhand I can think of that would qualify as 'good' was sparing Ziyal's life in 'Indescretion.'

 

[Anwar]

Dukat definitely was indeed a good guy and the series right up until Waltz bears that out.

Dukat was never evil until they deliberately assasinated his character via shadily retconning a ton of OOC crap onto his past at the end of Waltz, which is unquestionably the biggest fubaring in all of Trek.

No, he was always bad. After "Waltz" he just dropped the act and showed his true self.

 

[Anika Hanson]

I saw him as an opportunist however I think he actually thought he was doing the right thing, not only for Cardassia but for everyone.

 

[john titor]

I think he was a tragic hero

 

[Farrens]

I would not call him a "good" guy by any means. However Dukat in the beginning/middle of DS9 was certainly not "evil" either. He was a military man raised by a culture that as a whole was repressive and corrupt by federation standards. As such he did not behave in a way that was abnormal for the cardassia he was raised in. I've always felt that the end of DS9 took a complex character and broke him down into a single sided madman in the pah wraith story arc. No longer was he an alien with a different by defined moral code, but an entity that seemed to operate with little or no cultural identity at all. The end of Dukat was the greatest let down of DS9 IMO

 

[Cyke101]

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist. Mwahahaha!

 

[Bluesteel]

No I would say Dukat was evil. The only problem with him is that he is mentally unstable. He's convinced himself that he's the good guy and everybody is against him. Time and time he had an opportunity to change his ways and he refused.

Damar is the complete opposite of Dukat. This man went from a compelete thug who idolized Dukat and brutally shot his Daughter to a man who who gave up power simply because it didn't serve the Cardassian people. He DIED for freedom while Dukat died being an idiot in a Bajoran cave.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Dukat was an (anti-)hero during Season 4 and the first half of Season 5. From mid-Season 6 onwards he was a comic book villain.

During all other periods he was a more ambigious character... often the antagonist, occasionally the temporary ally.

 

[Thor Damar]

I'm going to post a more substantial argument later but I will state that I agree with Deranged Nasat and Nerys Ghemor on this one (as per usual) I'll explain why later and for now I'll leave you with this:

 

[DevilEyes]

while clearly no nice guy

I would say Dukat clearly is a nice guy. In fact, in his interactions with others, he always displayed far more politeness and consideration for the feelings of the other person than Sisko did. So did Weyoun for that matter, although Weyoun had a mean streak too. But Dukat didn't even have a mean streak prior to his character assasination in Waltz.

It's no contest that Dukat was alot nicer of a guy than Sisko, the hero of the show, was.

You seem to confuse superficial politeness and charm with being a nice person. If that were the case, every manipulative bastard would be a nice guy. And manipulative bastards can be very well attuned to other people's feelings, more than most people - of course, because they need to be in order to exploit them to their advantage.

As to how 'nice' Dukat was in the the early seasons of the show, maybe you've missed the way he tried to keep a Cardassian boy apart from his father in order to further his own political agenda?

Or let's just concentrate on the attitudes Dukat displayed in his interactions with Sisko. Did you miss the thinly veiled threats in the "friendly" promises he delivered smiling, during his first meeting with Sisko in "Emissary"?

DUKAT: Excuse my presumption, but this was my office only two weeks ago... So, have you been able to get the food replicators to work properly?
SISKO: Frankly, no.
DUKAT: Neither could we. That's one technology you have over us. You do know how to make a perfect onion soup. (stands up) ...I'm not used to being on this side of the desk. I'll be honest with you, Commander. I miss this office.
I wasn't happy about leaving it.
SISKO: Drop by any time you're feeling homesick...
DUKAT: You are very gracious. And allow me to assure you that we only want to be helpful in this difficult transition. You are far from the Federation fleet, alone in this remote outpost, with poor defense systems. Your Cardassian neighbors will be quick to respond to any problems you might have.
SISKO: We'll try to keep the dog off your lawn.
DUKAT: So what did you think of Kai Opaka? ...Oh, I stay informed... I know you went to the surface to see her... I understand you brought back one of the orbs. We thought
we had them all. Perhaps we could have an exchange of
information, pool our resources.
SISKO: I don't know anything about an orb.
DUKAT: We will be in close proximity should you wish to reconsider my suggestion. In the meantime, I assume you have no objection to my men enjoying the hospitality of the Promenade. (nods goodbye) Commander...

(BTW the description from Michael Piller's teleplay..."He is overly cordial as classic bullies are")

And in "The Maquis", which showed Sisko and Dukat working together, one of the things that I noticed and found a bit funny was that, as soon as they were in a tight situation where decisions had to be made, Dukat would start acting like he was in charge, and constantly telling Sisko what to do: Shoot them! What are you waiting for! Fire! Kill him! ... and when Sisko did not do as told and blast Cal Hudson, he told him how disappointed he was in him. As if he was so used to ordering people around that he kept forgeting that Sisko was not his subordinate. Which is symptomatic of Dukat's attitudes and relationships with people in general: he will think that he has a special relationship with someone - e.g. of respect and sort of friendship with Sisko - and then he'll keep trying to be in control. And then he'll wonder why they resent his 'friendship' and why they aren't grateful to him. He seemed incapable of treating people as equals, and he didn't even seem to be aware of it.