Gul Dukat was a good guy

[PSGarak]

I know a real life individual that is very much like Gul Dukat. The people who wind up thinking he is their friend and a really great guy get screwed over continually, and are constantly shocked by it because he is just so "charming" and "likable". Don't ever mistake politesse for goodness. A snake is a snake, regardless of whether he wears a smile or a sneer.

 

[Anwar]

I said it before, I'll say it again: Dukat had a heart of gold, cold and metallic.

 

[Bones2]

I always thought he was good. Yeah, that's right.

He really was let down by the writing post-Waltz. And even right at the end of Waltz where Sisko says he's pure evil and the audience is supposed to agree. If Dukat were pure evil, he'd have bludgeoned Sisko to death on that planet rather than letting the Defiant know where he was.

 

[DevilEyes]

I always thought he was good. Yeah, that's right.

He really was let down by the writing post-Waltz. And even right at the end of Waltz where Sisko says he's pure evil and the audience is supposed to agree. If Dukat were pure evil, he'd have bludgeoned Sisko to death on that planet rather than letting the Defiant know where he was.

I think it was "true evil", but anyway, that line was stupid. But I am amazed that people can't see that there is a wide range of choices of how to characterize someone that fall somewhere between "good guy" and "pure evil". You'd almost think that he has to be either one or the other, and frankly, I find both those choices absurd.

 

[PSGarak]

I think it was "true evil", but anyway, that line was stupid. But I am amazed that people can't see that there is a wide range of choices of how to characterize someone that fall somewhere between "good guy" and "pure evil". You'd almost think that he has to be either one or the other, and frankly, I find both those choices absurd.

What? What?! I'm pure, 100% goodness! Just ask me.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

I think it was "true evil", but anyway, that line was stupid. But I am amazed that people can't see that there is a wide range of choices of how to characterize someone that fall somewhere between "good guy" and "pure evil". You'd almost think that he has to be either one or the other, and frankly, I find both those choices absurd.

Agreed - like I said upthread, it's the fact that we saw Dukat play the good guy that make his crueler actions so much worse.

 

[Danoz]

The novels sort of ruined that for me... Dukat is actually a torturer and rapist.

 

[DevilEyes]

The novels sort of ruined that for me... Dukat is actually a torturer and rapist.

The novels are not canon, so there's no reason why they should ruin anything for you. The writers can (and often do) come up with all sorts of crap.

Of course, my policy is: if I like a book, I recognize it as my personal canon, if I hate it, I reject it.

I know I won't be reading "Fearful Symmetry", since I know what Dukat is supposed to be like in that book, and IMO that's utter rubbish and so out of character it's ridiculous. Good writing is making characters do only the things that make sense for their characterization.The author's idea of characterization seems to be "well, he's eeevil, so he'll do all sorts of eeevil things, right?" Um, no. That's like writing a novel about, say, Tony Soprano or Vic Mackey, and deciding "he's not bad enough, let's make him a child molestor". I mean, come on.

 

[JustKate]

I guess the OP and those who agree with him must have much, much, much lower standards for goodness than I have...

Dukat "nice"? Are you nuts? Sure, he had charm. Sure, he was often polite. Sure, he had some good qualities, and as Nerys Ghemor points out, he had the potential to be a great man.

But that's not enough - not even close. In the end, he cared for no one but himself, not even Cardassia. The only person, thing or ideal that Dukat truly loved was Dukat. This isn't "good." This is the antithesis of "good."

Also, he was just creeeeepy! And he seemed to enjoy that a lot. Good people don't generally get their kicks from creeping out other people.

 

[Kira Nerys]

He cunning and conceiving right up to till the righting died when season 7 started.

 

[Danoz]

The novels sort of ruined that for me... Dukat is actually a torturer and rapist.

The novels are not canon, so there's no reason why they should ruin anything for you. The writers can (and often do) come up with all sorts of crap.

Of course, my policy is: if I like a book, I recognize it as my personal canon, if I hate it, I reject it.

I know I won't be reading "Fearful Symmetry", since I know what Dukat is supposed to be like in that book, and IMO that's utter rubbish and so out of character it's ridiculous. Good writing is making characters do only the things that make sense for their characterization.The author's idea of characterization seems to be "well, he's eeevil, so he'll do all sorts of eeevil things, right?" Um, no. That's like writing a novel about, say, Tony Soprano or Vic Mackey, and deciding "he's not bad enough, let's make him a child molestor". I mean, come on.

I enjoyed "Fearful Symmetry" though I dare say I have to agree that making Dukat a serial rapist throughout his entire time on DS9 is a bit extreme... while the rest of the storyline is pretty clever (though a bit complicated a web since the "Soul Key" has mirror universe characters all over the place).

 

[Marie1]

I said it before, I'll say it again: Dukat had a heart of gold, cold and metallic.

LOL! True...

The novels sort of ruined that for me... Dukat is actually a torturer and rapist.

Well, we knew he had no problem with torture and murder before, and he wasn't exactly chaste, think Wrongs Darker than Death or Night... or whatever it was called.

Dukat was not a good guy- no one who blames their victims for crimes against them ever is.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Indeed--and someone that divided from his own soul is perfectly capable of leading a double life: respectability on the surface and something rotten underneath, and never acknowledging the one while in the mode of the other.

 

[PSGarak]

I have trouble seeing Dukat as an out an out rapist from his depiction on the show. It seemed too important to him to at least have the illusion that his women loved him. He'd never have that being a rapist. He wanted the ego strokes of feeling adored as much as he wanted the sex.

 

[DevilEyes]

I have trouble seeing Dukat as an out an out rapist from his depiction on the show. It seemed too important to him to at least have the illusion that his women loved him. He'd never have that being a rapist. He wanted the ego strokes of feeling adored as much as he wanted the sex.

Exactly. Dukat is above all a narcissist, obsessed with making people adore him, a guy who needs to see himself as a hero and try to make others see him the same way. A literal rape is something he'd be absolutely not interested in. That's not how he gets his kicks. Dukat is not a guy who would keep a woman prisoner so he could rape her. He is a guy who would order someone to try to rape her, so he'd come to her "rescue" so she would see him as a hero. (And indeed, we saw in "Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night"that this was his modus operandi.) He'd be using her vulnerability - and possible Stockholm Syndrome - by emotionally manipulating her, "saving" and "helping" her from the bad situation that he actually put her in in the first place, and all the while he'd convince himself that he really did love her and that he was doing what was best for her interests.

Dukat's relationships with women exemplify the core of the character - his manipulativeness, self-delusion, and above all his narcissistic need for admiration and love, combined with his need to be in control and inability to treat people (including those he "loves") as equals - the whole "benevolent dictator/slave-owner" thing (I'll treat you well and keep you in a golden cage). That is a part of the delightfully disturbing complexity of the character. The best villains are those who don't see themselves as bad guys, and who can even fool people into thinking they are nice. What "Fearful Symmetry" does to him destroys it completely. Only someone without a real understanding of the character could write him in such an out-of-character way that cheapens him and makes him into just another simple, repellent, mu-ha-ha villain.

 

[JustKate]

^ I agree almost 100 percent...almost. I can actually see Dukat raping somebody if he thought she "deserved" it (edit: and maybe...if he convinced himself that she really "wanted" it? That is a common belief among rapists, or so I've read.) But those would be rare circumstances, and he wouldn't make a regular practice of it. As you so eloquently write, DevilEyes, what he wants is to be adored and to be the hero - heck, he thinks of himself as the hero already and he believes he deserves all the adoration he gets and more. So what he would prefer to do - and what he would do under almost all circumstances - is manipulate the woman into complicity, to the point that she agrees that yes, he is the hero and he deserves her adoration. What he wants is willing submission.

 

[DestinyCaptain]

I remember thinking at the time the series was playing out that they were having Dukat trick the Dominion by joining them. That seemed like a Cardassian move to me. A plan within a plan. I figured that he was intentionally running DS9 the way he did to disrupt from within. Weyoun was constantly bemoaning the way he was conducting the war. I really thought this was intentional. I figured at some point he'd have the Cardassian forces stand down or turn on the Breen and Dominion so that the Alliance could beat them. I figured that this would him make him a hero in the eyes of alot of people after the war that did not know him like Kira did. I thought that Garak would eventually assassinate him as payment for their past.. That of course would elevate him to an even higher historic position. That would really irritate her. Anywho...

 

[Farrens]

I remember thinking at the time the series was playing out that they were having Dukat trick the Dominion by joining them. That seemed like a Cardassian move to me. A plan within a plan. I figured that he was intentionally running DS9 the way he did to disrupt from within. Weyoun was constantly bemoaning the way he was conducting the war. I really thought this was intentional. I figured at some point he'd have the Cardassian forces stand down or turn on the Breen and Dominion so that the Alliance could beat them. I figured that this would him make him a hero in the eyes of alot of people after the war that did not know him like Kira did. I thought that Garak would eventually assassinate him as payment for their past.. That of course would elevate him to an even higher historic position. That would really irritate her. Anywho...

Interesting idea, and it seems to fit the Cardassian way of thinking. Would have been a better season 7!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Though what actually DID happen fit well with Dukat's obsessions. One even wonders if the pullout from Bajor was in part the Detapa Council, and in part Dukat's own shenanigans.

 

[DevilEyes]

I remember thinking at the time the series was playing out that they were having Dukat trick the Dominion by joining them. That seemed like a Cardassian move to me. A plan within a plan. I figured that he was intentionally running DS9 the way he did to disrupt from within. Weyoun was constantly bemoaning the way he was conducting the war. I really thought this was intentional. I figured at some point he'd have the Cardassian forces stand down or turn on the Breen and Dominion so that the Alliance could beat them. I figured that this would him make him a hero in the eyes of alot of people after the war that did not know him like Kira did. I thought that Garak would eventually assassinate him as payment for their past.. That of course would elevate him to an even higher historic position. That would really irritate her. Anywho...

I wouldn't have liked to have Garak kill Dukat. It don't feel that it would be a fitting end, dramatically. Garak is probably the only person that Dukat has a better reason to hate than the other way round. Let's see: Garak tortured Dukat's father and had him executed vs Dukat our of revenge... what? didn't treat Garak nicely when he was on Terok Nor? Made him become a tailor? Tried to have him executed but didn't succeed? Meh. Dukat has done much worse to many other people. Besides, the hatred between Dukat and Garak seemed to be out-and-out mutual dislike and hate, one of those cases where you really can say there's "no love lost" between them, literally... I don't find that interesting enough as the more ambiguous relationships.

I was reading an old interview by Nana Visitor given during season 7, when she said she wanted Kira to kill Dukat (adding she hoped "he won't go out with a suicide like Hitler")... and I thought "That would have been much better than the ending they actually gave him". They had such a complicated and twisted relationship, and I felt it never got a resolution, or "closure", if you will. And Dukat's fate was always so tied in with Bajor and the occupation, more so than even with Cardassia (sometimes it felt like he had a love/hate obsession with Bajor, whle being somehow strangely disconnected from Cardassia). And it could have been great, only if done right - not in a "bang, you're dead, bad guy, good riddance" way, but really dramatic and personal. I'd say it calls for a fanfic, but I've never written one in my life. Although, you have to start somewhere...

Not that having a showdown between him and Sisko was not a good idea per se - they did have a rivalry going on from the very first episode; but a 2-minute fist fight in the cave, as Christ/Anti-Christ figures in a black-and-white Good vs Evil fight,with red-eye Dukat laughing maniacally? Ugh, no.

The only good thing about that ending is that, technically, Dukat is not dead, and neither is Sisko, and theoretically, both could come back and have a better ending - at least in novels, if anyone decided to take that route...although I doubt it.