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Gul Dukat Rules - Favorite Moment

I still think Kira and Dukat would make a great couple and would help peace between their worlds. The way she fell for Odo was safe and predictable imho.
It might have been a bit predictable. Safe... I don't know about that. In some ways, a relationship between a solid and a Changeling, due to the fundamental biological and psychological differences between the species, is far weirder and more 'out there' than a relationship between two humanoids could ever be, even if there is a long and painful history of animosity and hatred between them both on a personal level and between those humanoid species. I thought it was great that the show did not gloss over those issues but confronted them in "Chimera", and that it eventually did not go the romantic 'love conquers all' route, and made them part ways instead of making them live happily ever after. I don't think that was predictable. For the record, Nana Visitor was not in favor of that storyline either - she said she would have preferred Odo and Kira to remain just friends, because she thought the series should show that a woman and a man can be just friends, and also she didn't want them to become the happy couple of the station; and neither she nor Rene Auberjonois liked the episode "His Way" in which their characters finally became a couple. But she later said that she ended up liking the way the relationship was dealt with later on, and that she was glad they did not get the happy ending.

I am curious, mysticgeek, since you think a Kira/Dukat romance would be a good storyline, how you imagine it could have happened, and how would the relationship have worked? If you were a writer on the show, how would you write it? I think that, for me to find any K/D hookup remotely believable, one would have to come up with a scenario that would involve some very unusual circumstances and extreme emotional states for Kira. And then, if it did happen in the first place, I think Kira would hate herself for it; and even if she did not, there's still this problem: Dukat would not just magically turn into a good guy (the romantic rescue fantasy that a bad man only needs 'the love of a good woman' to reform is just that, a romantic fantasy) or into a person capable of having a relationship without trying to make the other person submit and share his delusions about him being a great guy who has done nothing wrong to Bajor or anyone - and you must realize Kira would not do that and could not remain silent about what she thought of his actions. Any hypothetical hookup between those two would have to be very short-lived and would end very badly. They'd be far more likely to kill each other than to 'live happily ever after'.

And, everything else aside - do you really believe that such a relationship, even if it had somehow worked, would help bring peace between Bajor and Cardassia? How and why would any hater change their mind on account of that? Say, imagine that there is story all over Bajoran and Cardassian version of tabloids and other media about a hookup between Gul Dukat, the former Prefect of Bajor and commander of Terok Nor, and Major/Colonel Kira Nerys of Bajoran Militia, former distinguished member of the Bajoran Resistance. What would, realistically, be the reactions? I can imagine shock, disbelief, curiosity, a lot of snickering and many judgmental and very non-complimentary comments (out of those Cardassians who would care about what Dukat does in his private life, the majority would probably say something like 'his thing for Bajoran whores has always been his undoing'; and as for Bajorans - I don't even want to think about what Bajorans would be saying about her, suffice to say they would lose any respect for her). But I can't picture many people changing their minds and saying: "Oh, you know, this makes me think that maybe those Cardies/Bajorans are nicer people than I thought." (Unless it was said with a sarcastic wink and a nudge nudge.)


But I think her truly making peace with Tekeny Ghemor would have been just as potent a symbol of unity as any romance, particularly considering how shallow so many Trek romances tend to be.

I agree, but like Nerys, I would say that it did serve as such a symbol. (I cried buckets at the end of that episode, too...)
 
It did serve as a symbol for Kira, for sure, DevilEyes. And me, for that matter. Ohhhhh, it was sad! But Mystic seems to think some sort of symbolism would be important for Bajor, and whether I agree or not (I haven't made up my mind), I don't think Tekeny's death worked that way. I could be wrong since I haven't seen DS9 in a while (I've just started watching the show again starting from the beginning), but that's my recollection. I'm not sure what would, to be honest.

I agree with your analysis of the probable effect of a Dukat/Kira romance on Bajor, too - very well put. I mean, I've already said that I would lose all respect for her, and my reaction would be nothing compared to that of Bajorans who had survived the occupation.
 
Kate...I think Kira DID end up making peace with Tekeny--but that scene wasn't shown out of respect for the two characters' privacy. That's why we only get the account afterwards from Kira, and personally, I get the feeling she didn't tell everything.
:cardie:

DS9's not a documentary you know.
 
@DiaboliKate:

I have already stated why I think they would make a good couple previously ... but I will make it more clear.
You can tell there is sexual tension between them almost right from the start. If you watch their subtle body language and actions with each other you can totally see that they dig each other. There is absolutely no doubt at all!
She is like the preppy high school chick who pretends she cannot stand the bad ass heavy metal guy in the class, but secretly is totally in love with his rebellious ways. If you cannot see that then I dunno what show you're watching.

I am not alone in this either! Look at this great fan created video on YouTube ... where he splices the several scenes of their flirtations together...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymvr3aq88Os

You guys think I am crazy ... but I imagine there are tons of people who would agree with me. They dig each other ... which is like the pink elephant in the room .. right? The fact they are in love is obvious.

Them being together would be a great move between the worlds of Bajor and Cardassia as they both hold or held in Dukats case... prominent positions in their respective worlds.
 
I agree she is possibly attracted to him, but even if she were madly in love with him, she wouldn't act on it. The difference between Dukat and the badass metal guy from your example is that badass metal guys usually don't tyrannize an entire planet, killing 10 million people in the progress.
 
Cat_in_a_Blender said:
I agree she is possibly attracted to him, but even if she were madly in love with him, she wouldn't act on it. The difference between Dukat and the badass metal guy from your example is that badass metal guys usually don't tyrannize an entire planet, killing 10 million people in the progress.

Yeah, exactly. A person can be sexually attracted to all kinds of people, but that doesn't mean he or she should always act on that attraction, much less start any kind of serious romance. If I'd all gotten involved with every inappropriate person I found attractive, my past life would be a lot more screwed up than it was.

MysticGeek said:
I have already stated why I think they would make a good couple previously ... but I will make it more clear.
You can tell there is sexual tension between them almost right from the start. If you watch their subtle body language and actions with each other you can totally see that they dig each other. There is absolutely no doubt at all!
She is like the preppy high school chick who pretends she cannot stand the bad ass heavy metal guy in the class, but secretly is totally in love with his rebellious ways. If you cannot see that then I dunno what show you're watching.

No, Mystic, you haven't explained. (And yes, I know you're not the only one who talks about this; there have been lots of discussions right here in this very forum.) But nobody has ever explained it so that it makes any sense - not with Kira being Kira and Dukat being Dukat.

Attracted? Sure. But "in love"? You have got to be kidding, or else we really were watching a different show. What you see is plain old sexual attraction, at least on Kira's part (I am not convinced Dukat is capable of love, though I guess it's remotely possible), and since she loathes him far more than she desires him, that attraction is not nearly as big of a deal as you think it is.

Because if you really were watching the same show I was, you know that if somebody spliced together scenes in which Kira shows how much she despises Dukat and his past and his present and everything he stands for, that would make for a faaaaaaaar longer video than the flirtation one.

And in your heart, you know that. Assuming we really were watching the same show.

Why, aside from regular old sexual attraction - which is, I'm sorry, not an adequate reason for a person to throw aside everything she believes in - should Kira even consider a relationship with Dukat? High school girls might get involved with high school badasses, but responsible adults are supposed to make better choices than that. And as Cat in a Blender notes, there's more wrong with Dukat than there is with the standard high school badass.

And how, exactly, would their coming together affect their worlds at all? As DevilEyes points out, Bajorans' reaction to such a romance would be horrified shock and disapproval, not "Oh, Dukat must not be so bad since Kira likes him."

I am, I swear, not badgering you. I really want to know your reasons. And I would really like it if you could delve a little deeper than how much they "dig" each other. DevilEyes has posed some very thought-provoking questions asking how you see such a romance becoming realistic. I do wish you could answer some of them. I'm trying to understand, but so far, I am failing.

I promise I am saying this not as a criticism but simply to convey how far I am from understanding, but to me, it sounds as though you are saying that Kira should ignore all the horrible things that Dukat did and never once felt the least bit sorry for, just because she realizes he's hot. And you know what? She shouldn't. No one should ignore all the horrible things that someone did just because that someone is hot.
 
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This discussion reminds me of all the fan mail Ted Bundy got in prison before he was executed for being a serial killer. A lot of women thought he was "hot". He even got marriage proposals. Just because you think somebody is physically attractive isn't a good reason to jump into a relationship with them. Bundy was in a relationship with one woman while killing others. Just because he didn't kill that woman, too, doesn't make him an OK guy. Add me to the perplexed crowd as to how that would ever be OK or work between Kira and Dukat.
 
Guys, guys!

If you can't see the attraction between the two, you totally are watching another show. It always struck me how Dukat had a charisma about him, liek many evil dictators and villains. There always seemed an aspect of this that was charming and you can see at many times Kira falling prey to this, but at the last second realizing just who its coming from and stopping it. Kira hates him, but there's an attraction going on and it seems like she forgets who it is and then is repulsed by the truth when she remembers! She may hate him, but that doesn't mean she doesn't feel anything for him. We all have feelings we don't act on, even if it meant we had feelings for a brutal dictator!
 
@DiaboliKate:

They have "love" in a sense as she cares about Ziyal ... and the two of them have been in some close situations with each other.
How would it help their worlds? The most hated man on Bajor with the hero resistance fighter from DS9 together... that would prove that love conquers all. I proves to both species that they can get along and be together ... no more hate... the occupation is over. How can anyone move on without forgivness?
 
There is no reason why Kira should not act out on her feelings to Dukat. The only fault Dukat had was his leniency to the Bajorans while he was Prefect. His mercy was rewarded with hatred and assassination attempts by the Bajorans. If anything Dukat is the one who should be angry with Kira on account of her peoples disrespect. This just goes to show that Dukat is superior both intellectually and emotionally. It would be foolish to think these attributes are not a direct result of his Cardassian upbringing.
 
Kate...I think Kira DID end up making peace with Tekeny--but that scene wasn't shown out of respect for the two characters' privacy. That's why we only get the account afterwards from Kira, and personally, I get the feeling she didn't tell everything.
:cardie:

DS9's not a documentary you know.

DUH, it's not a documentary. But the idea of a fictional show is to get you emotionally invested in the characters, and I think what the writers were doing was simulating the privacy you might give to a close friend in that situation. That doesn't mean the situation was REAL--it was a "tool" or "illusion" that the writers were creating with their choice to give it a similar feel to how such a situation might play out IRL if these were your neighbors.
 
I don't think anybody is arguing there wasn't an attraction there, jazzstick. Yes, the attraction was obvious, but attraction does not equal love or even a good reason by itself to get into a relationship.

And brilliant irony there, SpaceBrotha. I had to laugh. :D
 
Exactly. It is possible to experience attraction but to be rational and recognize that the relationship is not viable for whatever reason. And there certainly is a LOT of reason here.

Heck, to get to a sympathetic Dukat, in my own writing, I had to go into another universe. And I had to make this guy's history and his choices different practically from Day One.
 
Why couldn't there be love though ... it all starts with attraction anyway right? They obviously have that going for them.
Yeah yeah ... there were atrocities in the past from BOTH sides. Isn't the lesson that humanity ... species... need to better themselves? What would be better for the Bajorans and cardassians than seeing two rivals become one and create offspring that represent the new and not the old? There are tons of reasons why they should and could fall in love.
Bleh... we will never know though ... but I think it would have made an excellent turn in the story.
 
Why couldn't there be love though ... it all starts with attraction anyway right? They obviously have that going for them.
Though they may be attracted to each other, Dukat killed 10 million Bajorans, and isn't even sorry for it. In fact, he thinks the Bajorans are ungrateful for not putting up statues of him.
If Dukat was a real person and a human, he'd be the 4th worst dictator in history, right after Mao, Stalin, and Hitler. That's not something most people can or should easily forgive.
Yeah yeah ... there were atrocities in the past from BOTH sides. Isn't the lesson that humanity ... species... need to better themselves? What would be better for the Bajorans and cardassians than seeing two rivals become one and create offspring that represent the new and not the old?
Yes, the Bajorans did some nasty things too, but they were trying to liberate Bajor from the Cardassians. Maybe you're right of the symbolic value of a Bajoran and a Cardassian together, but not if the Cardassian is Dukat. Dukat wasn't just some Cardassian with a minor role in the occupation; he was the prefect of the planet. He sent millions of Bajorans to their deaths, and the reaction from both sides certainly wouldn't have been a "love conquers all".
There are tons of reasons why they should and could fall in love.
Bleh... we will never know though ... but I think it would have made an excellent turn in the story.
Actually there is only one: sexual attraction. Which on its own isn't a very good reason to fall in love. There are tons of women around I find attractive, but I could never fall in love with most of them.

BTW, in the "Seeds of Dissent" story in "Infinity's Prism" (which takes place in an alternate universe where Khan won the Eugenics wars), the both of them are in a resistance movement against the Great Khanate and in a relationship. But that Dukat never sent millions of Bajorans to their deaths.
 
She is like the preppy high school chick who pretends she cannot stand the bad ass heavy metal guy in the class, but secretly is totally in love with his rebellious ways.
So this is how DS9 looks like if one regards it as a teen romcom, with that occupation, war, mass murders, resistance movement, and so on, as an unimportant background. :p Let's see, Dukat would be the bad boy that the heroine hates at first and is always bickering with but actually sort of likes him; Odo would be the likable geeky best friend who is secretly in love with the heroine; and Shakaar - the generic jock boyfriend that the audience is rooting against and who is destined to get dumped before the end of the movie. :rommie: I guess from that perspective, all that is missing is Kira and Dukat ending up as a happy couple after she learns that he's not that bad after all. Then Temis The Vorta would be completely justified in her view that Trek relationships are written on a juvenile level. ;)

Yeah yeah ... there were atrocities in the past from BOTH sides. Isn't the lesson that humanity ... species... need to better themselves? What would be better for the Bajorans and cardassians than seeing two rivals become one and create offspring that represent the new and not the old? There are tons of reasons why they should and could fall in love.
Bleh... we will never know though ... but I think it would have made an excellent turn in the story.
I have already addressed the issue in my previous post:
Open wounds do not heel with time. They fester. For any real healing and reconciliation to begin between Bajor and Cardassia in general (rather than just peace, or even cooperation, based on necessity and circumstances, while the majority of the people on both sides still hate each other), Cardassia as a society would first have to acknowledge the crimes that Cardassians had committed against Bajor, and would have to come to general agreement that this was wrong and should never be allowed to happen again. And I don't just mean the mass murders or the torture, or saying something like "sorry for the 5 million dead... it was just a few bad seeds in the Cardassian military, and besides, that pesky Resistance drove us to it" or apologizing for not having made the slavery more pleasant. Someone would need to officially recognize that the occupation itself was wrong, that the Cardassians had no right to enslave Bajorans in the first place, that they had no right to exploit their land and to use them sexually or as a work force or for whatever they felt like doing with them; and that Bajorans were not inferior, that they were people who had the right to be free. Some people would genuinely feel that way, some would not, and I am sure that there would be a fair number of those who would feel that the Occupation was wrong, but only because it didn't end well for Cardassia. But still, whatever the individual feelings and opinions, the society and the public would have to accept some general truths.

That would certainly help the Bajorans, in turn, to start letting go of their own prejudice that all Cardassians are evil butchers.

And it has to be said that Bajoran Resistance no doubt committed awful things as well, and not all of it can be justified - but at the same time, one has to keep in mind that the blame is still more on Cardassians, who had no business occupying Bajor in the first place, and who did not leave the Bajorans a choice. There is a fine line between shades of gray and moral relativism - but those are still two very different things. (Just like trying to establish some basic truths about right and wrong is not the same as painting a ridiculously black and white picture, especially not one that involves Good vs Evil in a supernatural battle complete with demonic possessions and divine interventions... but that's another story.)

You know about "truth and reconciliation" - first the truth has to be universally recognized, so there can be reconciliation. And you know what they say about owing justice to the dead? I think one owes it even more to the living, because, if you don't deal with the past, if you sweep crimes under the carpet, you risk for them to happen all over again.

You can't and shouldn't forgive someone who feels no remorse for their crimes, someone who doesn't even acknowledge he did anything wrong. For Kira to even start forgiving Dukat, Dukat would have to fundamentally change, stop deluding himself and come to the realization about his crimes, and to be ready to accept responsability for what he has done. And, as Nerys Ghemor/Nerys Dukat pointed out in one of the earlier discussion on the subject, if that ever happened, a relationship with Kira would not be the first thing on his mind, because he would first have to find a way to live with himself and his guilt, and would need to feel accountable for his crimes for his own peace of mind as much as for anyone else.
 
Yeah, no kidding. Ironically, in such a situation I do not think HE would be feeling up to a relationship in any way, shape, or form. People suffering from extreme degrees of guilt very often take a long, long time to open back up.

Heck...I find myself wondering if that was perhaps another reason (beyond the ones that he openly states) that St. Paul never married. He started out VERY similarly--zealous to commit ethnic cleansing against Christians, and then being struck on the road to Damascus with the overwhelming guilt and wrongness of his crimes. He came around, but although there's little direct mention of it, you CAN tell from the Biblical account that he had to deal face-to-face with the backlash...with not being trusted because of who he was and what he'd done, with the guilt (even in later letters you can STILL tell in how he talks about himself), and everything that goes with it.

Dukat, were he to actually come around in a truly meaningful manner, would be dealing with the same things. It is even possible that someone who felt that truly remorseful would willingly submit himself to justice and let the court decide what should happen to him. Entering into a relationship, I think, would be a VERY low priority with all of that going on.

But we will never know, because at the two moments when I think Dukat had the greatest chance of coming around (when he found Ziyal, and when she died), he did not. He sold his soul and had to face the consequences--period.
 
@DiaboliKate:

They have "love" in a sense as she cares about Ziyal ... and the two of them have been in some close situations with each other.
How would it help their worlds? The most hated man on Bajor with the hero resistance fighter from DS9 together... that would prove that love conquers all. I proves to both species that they can get along and be together ... no more hate... the occupation is over. How can anyone move on without forgivness?

Mystic, I'll answer your last question first. People often say stuff like "You can't move on without forgiveness." But actually that's completely untrue. And the proof is that people do so all the time. They have to since most of us are both unwilling and unable to forgive the unforgivable. But we can still move on.

Men who fight in wars, for example, frequently don't forgive their enemies. My dad was a medic in the Pacific during WWII and as you might imagine, he saw some horrible, unforgettable, unforgivable things. But most of these men, including my dad, move on. They come back home, they start a civilian job, they get married, they start their families, they build a life - they move on. They might never forgive the people they fought against, they might have nightmares now and then, but the hatred dulls and maybe even ebbs away and the nightmares become less frequent over the years. Because they've moved on.

So your final premise - that without forgiving Dukat, Kira will never move on; that without forgiving Dukat, Bajor will never move on - is wrong. At least it is for many humans I know, and I suspect many humans you know as well, so why wouldn't it be wrong for Bajorans?

As for your still to me inexplicable insistance that Kira and Dukat "loved" each other, either I am misreading you - which is possible - or you have a much different understanding of real love than I do.

You can't love someone as a friend or a lover if you despise that person, and despite the chemistry between them and despite Ziyal, Kira despised Dukat - for what he did, for what he was and for what he remained. She hoped, from time to time, mostly for Ziyal's sake, that there had been some change for the better, but she never really believed it and she never believed it had gone very deep. Mostly because it hadn't.

And she never, not once, forgot what he'd done to Bajor, to her family and friends, to her people. When you despise somebody as much as she did Dukat, when you associate that person with all the wrongs done to your people, there isn't room there for any kind of love. Sexual attraction doesn't change that even the least bit.

Can you really and truly believe that a person can forget all that just because of sex? Please.

And besides, I think underneath the teasing and the attraction, Dukat despised her as well. Remember he considered Bajorans inferior - he said so more than once. So at best, his opinion of Kira would be that she was good...for a Bajoran. (And he had a weird, perverted thing about Bajoran women anyway, if his past is anything to go by.) But not of course the equal of a Cardassian.

You ask, "How can anyone move on without forgiveness?" What I ask you is, "How can she forgive him when he doesn't think he's done anything wrong?" Or even more basic, "How can she ever accept him as a decent person when he doesn't think he's done anything wrong?"

He seems to believe that everything he did was justified. And he's wrong.

And even if he had acknowledged any of his wrongs - which he never, ever did - do you really think she would have believed him?

And to return to our beloved TV show, would it be realistic if she did? That's one of the really cool things about DS9, I think - that despite its sci-fi setting, the people act like real people. Well, real people don't fall in love with the commandant of their prisoner of war camp. Resistance fighters in WWII Paris didn't fall in love with Nazi overseers (although I'm sure there were romances between French women and regular, run-of-the-mill German soldiers), and real Armenians didn't fall in love with any Turks in 1915.

So a real Bajoran resistance fighter, if there were such a thing, would never fall in love with the man, no matter how sexually attractive to her he happened to be, who she believed was directly and indirectly responsible for the oppression, torture and death of her friends, her family, her people - and who never, not once, felt as though he'd done anything wrong. A real Bajoran resistance fighter might fall for a Cardassian - but not this one.

If that's what you see when you watch DS9, all I can say is, you're seeing what you want to see.

Which is kind of understandable, I guess. Dukat is an immensely compelling character - when he's on the screen, it's hard to take your eyes off him, at least it is for me. And because he's so fascinating and compelling, you want to see goodness there. Well, I won't say there was no goodness. But there wasn't very much.

As for your point about what a symbol this pairing would be for Bajor, I've answered this (so did DevilEyes), but you apparently didn't see my answer. So I'll try again.

I want you to think again about how real people react. And how would real people who, for example, lived in Paris during the Nazi occupation react if they found out one of the heroes of the French Resistance had fallen in love with the person in charge of the occupying forces? The forces that starved Parisians, forced some of its women into prostitution, maintained forced labor camps, etc., etc., etc. Would it be a symbol that love conquers all?

Or is it more likely that their reaction be, "Our hero of the resistance has lost her mind!"? Or, "She's a traitor!"? Or, "I'll bet she collaborated with the Nazis!"

And you know, harsh as this sounds, they'd be right to be suspicious and angry and feel betrayed. Because a real resistance fighter might eventually fall in love with a German - but not the German directly or indirectly responsible for the oppression, torture and death of her friends, her family, her people. No matter how sexy he is.

And why would you want her to?
 
I've been working on a story on the back burner for awhile in which someone who has heritage from a world that was attacked by Cardassians during the Dominion War falls in love with a Cardassian. But the MAJOR, MAJOR difference is this: the Cardassian in question did NOT commit any crimes! THAT actually works as a sign of reconciliation or hope. NOT a romance with a war criminal, which Dukat undeniably is.
 
It really doesn't matter what kind of killing there was... Dukat did his job for Cardassia ... he is a good soldier and leader.
You have to forget about all that stuff and forgive man. What if they got stuck on a planet and it was just the two of them growing old together .. you mean she has to HATE him for life? She has to live for eternity with the burden of hate?
 
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