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Gul Dukat is a good guy

He became a cartoon character towards the end of the series.
I liked him up until the time he joined with the Dominion, and later went crazy. He was never a Dudley Do-Right good guy, but he was, up until that time, a multifaceted worthy adversary type of character, almost an anti-hero. He was able to work effectively with Sisko, and also with Kira for a time.

Then the writers ruined this character by turning him into a Batman-style, cardboard cutout, one-note villain. I would have liked it better if the writers had allowed him to remain more like the Cardassian Marc Alaimo played in TNG, Gul Macet.

In general, I wish the show had wrapped up the Dominion storyline much quicker and moved on to something else, rather than allow it to dominate the last four seasons.
 
I found the Bajoran religion gave the show a different depth but Dukat was definitely a bad guy even if we forgot the occupation again the pah-wraiths, and trying to burn Bajor from the fire caves cannot be excused
 
Dukat was cool in the Maquis two parter. He was cool governing Cardassia. That general characterisation was strong.

The character's turn as a cackling ninny and then as an oily bajoran schemer, less so. As for that cult...well, I mean look at the guy..I wouldn't trust the guy with my pet budgie Horace still less with my immortal soul. And that's even leaving out the small detail that he's the interstellar answer to Adolf Hitler.
 
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I thought Dukat's character was an entertaining sociopath from early on, but he definitely took a turn for the maniacal psycho after his daughter's death. Believable, in my opinion. A good nemesis.
 
Horace would be fine, Hitler liked animals apparently. It was just people he took offence at.
 
Dukat did not become cardboard, just because he became more obviously vicious. There REALLY ARE people like that. They're not Batman villains, they're extreme narcissists. It was character development. It's where Dukat was inevitably headed.

This thread started out talking about "Waltz ". From Dukat's point of view, if he works fewer Bajorans to death than his superiors wanted, it makes him a humanitarian, even though the death count was still high. And he wants the Bajorans to erect a statue of him for this.

Later that same episode, Dukat proclaims that he should have exterminated the whole population.
 
Dukat did not become cardboard, just because he became more obviously vicious. There REALLY ARE people like that. They're not Batman villains, they're extreme narcissists. It was character development. It's where Dukat was inevitably headed.

This thread started out talking about "Waltz ". From Dukat's point of view, if he works fewer Bajorans to death than his superiors wanted, it makes him a humanitarian, even though the death count was still high. And he wants the Bajorans to erect a statue of him for this.

Later that same episode, Dukat proclaims that he should have exterminated the whole population.
People complain (such as myself) because he lost all of that nuance. He was conflicted, mostly in his own mind, but conflicted he was. By the time the final season rolls around, he's lost all of that nuance and has become generic super-evil villain who wants to destroy the universe.
 
People complain (such as myself) because he lost all of that nuance. He was conflicted, mostly in his own mind, but conflicted he was. By the time the final season rolls around, he's lost all of that nuance and has become generic super-evil villain who wants to destroy the universe.

Nope.
 
Using Kira's law of judging by his actions...

-Blew up a shipful of defenceless klingons
-Joined the Dominion
-Killed Jadzia
-Formed a Cult

...reasonably sure his 'Fluffy Bunny of the Year" award is on indefinite hold...
 
Using Kira's law of judging by his actions...

-Blew up a shipful of defenceless klingons
-Joined the Dominion
-Killed Jadzia
-Formed a Cult

...reasonably sure his 'Fluffy Bunny of the Year" award is on indefinite hold...

Did the nasty on screen with Bajoran Old Lady Pope. (OK Not so much Evil as "Nobody wants to see that!")
 
I loved the Dukat character, it was one of the best acted and most entertaining of all of Trek. But yes he was definitely evil...extremely evil.
 
I agree with the thread title. Dukat was a good guy.

In my own personal canon, I disregard the ludicrously one-dimensional cartoon caricature version of Dukat as represented from Waltz to the series finale, and I recognize the rich character of Dukat from Emissary up until Waltz (or maybe only up until he refuses to leave the station) as the real Dukat.

The writers' inexplicable decision to ruin their own character with asinine writing is quite tragic.

He's a war criminal!!!!

How so? IIRC he didn't commit any war crimes. He was just an administrator. IIRC the Federation didn't even have any grounds on which to take him prisoner, yet they did so anyway. That would make the Federation war criminals IMO...and the genocide disease definitely makes the Federation war criminals and far more evil than is even the post-Waltz/caricature-version of Dukat.
 
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Yeah, he's a totally great guy before Waltz. Like when he kidnapped the child of a rival and sent them to an orphanage just so he could maybe humiliate the rival some day. Or how he opposed the decision to withdraw from Bajor. And let's not mention his numerous affairs.
 
Well, he commited a number of pretty terrible acts and, in the end, went on the psychotic quest which only a megalomaniac would undertake so "good guy" is probably a little strong but...

I think one of the best parts of DS9 is that good/evil isn't really adequate for most characters. The driving story of Dukat is that he is a patriot. Up until his little demon adventure, everything he does, he does because he wants Cardassia to succeed. I think that's part of why Damar admires him so. They are both driven by love for their culture and heritage. To the point of trying to use one bird of prey to fight an army they see as destroying the grandness of their culture. Even when he joins the Dominion, isn't it driven by his perception of patriotism? In that way, he is no different than Kira or, say, Garak or Martok or, really, any of them. They are all extremely partisan patriots.

I mean, the occupation alone, casts doubt on how we might morally judge him. But imagine if we were watching the show from the Cardassian point of view. The Klingons start and aggressive war and the government of Cardassia is weakened into a corner. Dukat wages a one ship war to try to save the independence and pride of his home. Isn't that what Sisko does in "The Search" when he thinks the Federation is yielding to the Dominion? Then Dukat makes what he thinks is a strategic alliance with a less than reputable government. But so does the Federation with the Romulans. At that point in their dealings with the Dominion when he makes the alliance, had they really done anything worse than we have seen powers in the Alpha quadrant do?

That being said, the whole demon Dukat is pure megalomania and he acts like a lunatic bent on revenge. Though, the wormhole aliens become partisans of the war in Sacrifice of Angels. If your enemies have powerful beings on their side, wouldn't you see out a defense of equal strength?
 
Well, early on Dukat appears and has the run of the station just like any other traveller. Oh, sure, there's tension but he's not immediately arrested or anything like that which you would think would happen if he was formally a war criminal. It's possible he was designated a war criminal but was "exiled" by the Bajorans in an act of realpolitilk. The Bajorans are glad to be rid of the Cardassians, they don't want to quarrel with them endlessly forever demanding extraditions that will just be laughed at. .

As for arresting Dukat when he was flaked out on the station, I dunno what charges there might be at play with that. There's dialogue there from Sisko saying that the Cardassian-Dominion government Dukat lead isn't recognised.Perhaps there's some multipower convention governing interstellar outlaws and the Federation argues he mets that qualification.
 
Capn Nick, excellent points. We always have to remember that every Star Trek series shows things from the perspective of the Federation and its worldview. We should ask ourselves if Dukat is within the parameters of accepted Cardassian morality and ethical values, or whether he's violated the values of his own people. It's perhaps not helpful to judge him by human values, as he isn't human, nor was he raised on Earth or within the Federation. I'll hazard a guess and say that he was probably was, for the most part, until he went off the rails and became crazy. After all, I don't think he'd have gone as far as he did otherwise, as I'm thinking Cardassian society would have weeded out an individual that strayed too far from their values long before they could reach high rank.

I just re-watched Indiscretion and I think this is my favorite Dukat episode. He and Kira worked well together and they're able to laugh together, despite their history. And despite claiming to hate Dukat, it's obvious she feels comfortable with him and trusts him enough to be alone with him for over a week. And, as she said near the end, she knew Dukat wouldn't be able to kill Ziyal, because she recognized that he really loved Naprem and Ziyal. It's also obvious that Ziyal loved him, too. I have to admit I tear up every time I see that scene where he throws down the rifle and they embrace. And, at the end, Dukat is actually unselfish for once, taking Ziyal back to Cardassia with him, because she deserved a home and a father. *This* is the Dukat that I wish would have lasted until the end of the series. This is probably why the writers killed off Ziyal, as a prelude to totally ruining the character of Dukat.
 
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