Gul Dukat is a good guy

[Romo Lampkin]

Seriously, I watched the episode where he's in the cave justifying himself to Sisko and he doesn't come across as all that bad. He wanted to rule with a softer hand but was forced to take severe measures by Central Command. And besides, the Bajorans are insufferable at best with their religiosity, (yeah whatever, wormhole aliens, go knock yourselves out *yawn*). The Bajorans have to be one of the most irritating species in Star Trek, it's all about them and their religion and their identity, it's like a really nationalistic, insular, self obsessed alien race, just so goddamn boring! And yeah, Gul Dukat had a right to be pissed at them because they tried to assassinate him and didn't appreciate his humanitarian policies. He was trying to help them in an adverse situation and they spat in his face. So why wouldn't he resort to hyperbole about annihilating Bajor? Also he loves his daughter and got along well enough with Kira for a time. It is true though that the Cardassians had no right to subjugate the Bajorans, that was the original crime, but Dukat was just a servant/soldier playing his role in that, it wasn't his original sin but that of his species.

 

[RAMA]

He's a war criminal!!!!

RAMA

Seriously, I watched the episode where he's in the cave justifying himself to Sisko and he doesn't come across as all that bad. He wanted to rule with a softer hand but was forced to take severe measures by Central Command. And besides, the Bajorans are insufferable at best with their religiosity, (yeah whatever, wormhole aliens, go knock yourselves out *yawn*). The Bajorans have to be one of the most irritating species in Star Trek, it's all about them and their religion and their identity, it's like a really nationalistic, insular, self obsessed alien race, just so goddamn boring! And yeah, Gul Dukat had a right to be pissed at them because they tried to assassinate him and didn't appreciate his humanitarian policies. He was trying to help them in an adverse situation and they spat in his face. So why wouldn't he resort to hyperbole about annihilating Bajor? Also he loves his daughter and got along well enough with Kira for a time. It is true though that the Cardassians had no right to subjugate the Bajorans, that was the original crime, but Dukat was just a servant/soldier playing his role in that, it wasn't his original sin but that of his species.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

He's a war criminal!!!!

RAMA

Also batshit insane. Also a pathological liar/self-deceiver and an ego/megalomaniac. You have to be pretty naïve to take anything Dukat says about himself at face value.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

It is true though that the Cardassians had no right to subjugate the Bajorans, that was the original crime, but Dukat was just a servant/soldier playing his role in that, it wasn't his original sin but that of his species.

"Ja, I vass just vollowink orders!" -- Every other Nazi after WWII. It didn't work for them either.

 

[Romo Lampkin]

True, very true, but the same never seems to apply to the victors in war, does it? I mean the Nazis were assholes but human societies seem to operate on 'stupid', i.e. follow orders, do as your told, don't question anything, conform etc, that Milligram experiment seems to demonstrate just how passive and pliable most humans really are.

 

[Romo Lampkin]

You could clearly see how he was feeling the hot burn of guilt until Sisko said he was just a soldier, you could see the relief on his face as he was like yeah of course! The dude was just in an awkward position as prefect and had to carry out insane orders but the redeeming thing is that he tried to convince Central Command that there was a better way.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The fact that Dukat used soft power before hard power or manipulation before suppression is not a good argument for saying he was a good guy. Before he went crazy, it was clear he could never look beyond any framing that did not put both him and Cardassia on the top of the hierarchy, and in A Call to Arms, it is clear that his intent was to subjugate Bajor again.

 

[Romo Lampkin]

Yeah but that's because of his culture, which was assways regarding the right to subjugate other cultures based on notions of superiority/inferiority. If anything he was a leader you could reason with, a Roose Bolton rather than a Ramsey. Actually here's a thought, which culture would you get along better in, Cardassian or Bajoran? I'm not sure myself, I think Cardassians are more open but also probably more arrogant/warlike/pragmatic-utilitarian but I'm not sure I could put up with Bajoran theocracy and their obsession with tradition.

 

[Terok Nor]

I imagine Dukat's name is one of the most hated in Cardassian history. He's pretty much responsible for the near annihilation of his race.

 

[jaime]

So, basically the Bajorans are annoying because they are religious, so to subjugate them is OK?

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Dukhat could have been portrayed the way you describe, but it ignores key things like his Bajoran comfort women, the time he set up a cult on empok nor, and the part where he basically wanted to burn everything to the ground with the pagh wraiths. And other bits, but that about covers it.

 

[Tosk]

People can be charming, even psychopaths. The fact that a lot of people seem to cut Dukat so much slack just because he loves his daughter and claims to have meant well when he did all those horrible things scares me. But just a little.

 

[BillJ]

He became a cartoon character towards the end of the series.

 

[jaime]

People can be charming, even psychopaths. The fact that a lot of people seem to cut Dukat so much slack just because he loves his daughter and claims to have meant well when he did all those horrible things scares me. But just a little.

I think at that point, like a lot of people, when it was first shown, I thought they were indeed going the redemptive route. As time goes on it becomes clear it's not even about paternal love with Dukhat and Ziyal..
It's control. No one may imprison, chastise, or control his daughter except for him, and she is a possession under his control.
Now...when he breaks down, it's hard to judge if something more real kicked in and finally broke him, but I suspect he would have no problem pulling the trigger himself should she utterly oppose him to his face and gave him a way to justify it away.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

.Actually here's a thought, which culture would you get along better in, Cardassian or Bajoran?

I'm a Deist, practically an atheist, but I'd much prefer Bajoran culture. Most of them seem to be religious like my grandmother was - very religious, but also trying hard not to be a jerk about it.

Of course, the trick to being irreligious is not to devolve into "look how edgy I am," or "look how super-smart and rational I am" (Trust me, you're not, nobody is. We just believe in one less silly thing than some other people) or other "treating atheism as just another religion" kinds of dickery. I grew out of that about 25 years ago.

I think Cardassians are more open

HAHAHANO.

 

[apollo1984]

I don't believe his words for a second, I think he tries to convince those around him that he is that type of person, yet just look at his actions throughout the course of the series, he is arrogant, would gladly hide his daughter from everyone because it would make him look bad and only comes back to her once he looses the rest of his family. He seems intent on gaining power to rule the quadrant.

Why rule someone just to treat them with a gentle hand, it's not exactly what the bajorians needed. He simply wants the power and image of a leader. Someone as vain as that is not a good guy.

 

[Long Syntax]

So, basically the Bajorans are annoying because they are religious, so to subjugate them is OK?

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Dukhat could have been portrayed the way you describe, but it ignores key things like his Bajoran comfort women, the time he set up a cult on empok nor, and the part where he basically wanted to burn everything to the ground with the pagh wraiths. And other bits, but that about covers it.

I agree with your viewpoint here. I almost thought the OP was just trying their had at satire until I read a little more. The writers clearly wrote Dukat to be seen as the villian, not to be viewed as just a misunderstood Cardassian caught up in a political power struggle. Comfort women and the attempt to cover his love child's birth by giving the cult followers a suicide pill (while setting aside a fake pill for himself) are just two instances I can think of off the top of my head that remove any doubt that he was evil.

 

[Romo Lampkin]

I'm a Deist, practically an atheist, but I'd much prefer Bajoran culture. Most of them seem to be religious like my grandmother was - very religious, but also trying hard not to be a jerk about it.

Of course, the trick to being irreligious is not to devolve into "look how edgy I am," or "look how super-smart and rational I am" (Trust me, you're not, nobody is. We just believe in one less silly thing than some other people) or other "treating atheism as just another religion" kinds of dickery. I grew out of that about 25 years ago.

HAHAHANO.

I agree with that, I don't see the point of religious arguments, they distract from interesting topics. I just find the Bajorans insufferable, I think that's justification enough for their subjugation.

 

[Terok Nor]

I was never fond of Bajoran religious episodes or the Prophets but you have to look at Bajoran religion in the context it was presented to us. This was all the Bajoran people had to get them through the occupation. Apart from that jerk who time travelled into the fourth season to replace Sisko as the emissary they were never pushy when it came to their religion. It was an enormous part of their culture and for good reason. A very positive reason in fact. A lot of the non Bajoran characters often expressed interest in finding out more about it.

 

[Spot261]

People can be charming, even psychopaths

Especially psychopaths, it's what makes them so dangerous. I actually think it speaks volumes about Marc Alaimo's performance that so many felt this way about Dukat, no matter what he was shown doing people (both characters in show and the viewing audience) were willing to trust him.

The cave scene is classic narcissistic stuff, with him feeling the need to seek justification from his perceived nemesis. Nothing he is saying has any real bearing on his moral culpability, merely indicates he feels the need to justify his behaviour to himself and a select few whose opinion he deems worthy. In this case the man he perceives as his alter ego - the other ruler of terek nor.

There was a documentary made a while back where Hitler's secretary was interviewed at length about her time with him in the Berlin bunker and it was clear she was still in love with him, she barely mentions the atrocities she was asked to forward orders for, rather she talked at great length about how kind he was to kids and animals, how he was such charming company and listened to everything she had to say. Had he not been so charismatic it's difficult to see how he could have convinced half the world to follow him. The most dangerous people get to be that way precisely because they get people to let their guards down.

Yes Dukat may have tried softer methods, but only to assess their usefulness in gaining control and maybe reinforce some form of Messiah complex, not out of any genuine concern for the Bajoran people, you can guarantee that. Psychopaths don't always resort to violence as a default, rather they choose whatever methods they deem most likely to gain the results they desire at the time. Yes he may have been acting according to the policies of his government, but how is it that he, of all the billions of Cardassians out there, found himself in that singular position of holding ultimate power of life and death over so many? It's simple, because he was eminently suited to the job and had worked his way up callously disregarding life and suffering except where it suited him or his ego to do otherwise.

Tellingly, he can superficially respect and honour individual Bajorans (treating Kira as an equal when he needed her, bedding Winn Adami when he needed her, fathering and raising Tora - after trying to kill her) whilst subjugating the entire race, instituting mass murders, slavery and systematic rapes with equanimity. Again, he can be whoever and whatever he believes is needed to reach his goals, if that is charming friend and confidante so be it, if it is cold uncaring monster likewise.

The character to me constantly screamed out "redemption" and that is exactly why people loved him, they kept wanting that moment when something or someone showed him the light, his Darth Vader moment. But it never came because he truly was evil, merely very good at gaining people's trust.

 

[jaime]

I agree with that, I don't see the point of religious arguments, they distract from interesting topics. I just find the Bajorans insufferable, I think that's justification enough for their subjugation.

I hate to see what you would do to the French.
Or the Italians.
Anywhere with a more than healthy liking for garlic really.