grammar rule help needed.

[Pingfah]

You didn't answer my question

 

[Deckerd]

Surely it should be "I like the film which Framed Roger Rabbit".

 

[scotpens]

I’m still waiting for the sequel, Who Fricasseed Roger Rabbit?

 

[Admiral Shran]

No. I should be...

I like the film in which Roger Rabbit was framed by someone.

 

[Pingfah]

I’m still waiting for the sequel, Who Fricasseed Roger Rabbit?

Yes, you are.

 

[Trekker4747]

Trekker seems to be under the impression that the only way to identify a question is by a question mark at the end. I can see the point he is making, but has anyone actually ever come across a situation like that, where the sentence:

I like the film "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

is intended as a question, and has absolutely no context associated with it by which to parse its real meaning? If people are throwing out sentences like that and expecting them to be understood, they deserve not to be. The answer to how to overcome this problem is not to write such sentences.

Certainly context and the wording of a sentence can suggest more on what type of sentence it is more than the punctuation can but, at the same time, there are plenty of situations (irony, sarcasm) where a statement can be said as a question. (Verbally this is more the tone one uses when speaking.)

As far as the italics thing goes, not always feasible to use. Here and on most word processors it's as easy as a Ctrl+I, other places it may require the use of bracketed commands or having to click on a button.

And, of course, when writing with a pen and paper it's nearly impossible to write in italics and while style-rules say that in this situation movie and book titles are underlined, the names of articles, chapters in a book or episode titles go in quotes so we lead back in to the possibility of confusion.

And if it'd cause a read to go through a sentence that starts as a statement and ends with a question mark even it takes a moment for the person to stop and think about what they have just read then it can lead to confusion.

So, since the episode "Who Watches the Watchers" stylistically is properly in quotes, it could be confusing (if even for a moment) if it was in a statement for two reasons.

I like the episode "Who Watches the Watchers."

1. The sentence, being a statement, ends in a period, even though there's clearly a question in it.

If the episode title was properly punctuated:

I like the episode "Who Watches the Watchers?"

Now we have a sentence that is a statement, but ends with a question mark properly placed both stylistically inside the quote and with the episode title. But it may lead to some confusion for a reader who may think the original writer of the sentence just made a statement a question.

Hell, how many times on this very board do people make a thread title that's a statement but ends it with a question mark?

I do not disagree with what the rules are, just stating that in today's world they could probably use some adjustment in order to work in a modern world where we have the names of things like episode titles that have question marks in them and people talking with irony exists.

I'd argue the style needs to change and be adapted and for that, personally, I say that if the punctuation is part of the quoted item it goes inside the quote, if it's not part of the quoted item it goes outside the quote.

If it'd make something a little more clearer to read then I think the change works and, keep in mind, language does evolve over time.

So, assuming the episode title ended in a "?", which presents the idea clearer as a statement?

I like the episode "Q Who?"

I like the episode "Q Who?".

Which one makes it clear that:

A) The question mark is part of the episode title.
B) The sentence is a statement.
C) The writer is not using poor grammar (as far as using a question mark for a statement) or making an ironic/sarcastic comment.

(Yes, I realize the episode didn't end with a question mark, this is just an example.)

Again, I do not disagree with what the established style is, just saying that maybe it could use a touch of evolution to reflect modern society where episode titles exist and people use sarcasm to express ideas and thoughts.

 

[Pingfah]

I do not disagree with what the rules are, just stating that in today's world they could probably use some adjustment in order to work in a modern world where we have the names of things like episode titles that have question marks in them and people talking with irony exists.

You're right of course. 100 years ago titles never had question marks in them, and nobody was ever sarcastic.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Trekker, what's wrong with starting your question with "do"?

 

[RoJoHen]

And really, all of this would be solved by getting rid of the quotes and simply typing the title in italics.

Which opens a whole other can of worms, namely the rules about using italics vs. quotation marks for titles.

I learned to use italics for novels, plays, motion pictures, and television series. Quotation marks for short fiction pieces, chapter titles, individual episodes of TV shows. For poems, I can’t remember what the hell I’m supposed to use.

Nah, I think we're fine using italics for just about everything. Keep in mind that most of these rules are old and haven't really been updated in quite some time. I think in the age of the internet, italics (or underlining) should be good.

 

[Gryffindorian]

Trekker seems to be under the impression that the only way to identify a question is by a question mark at the end. I can see the point he is making, but has anyone actually ever come across a situation like that, where the sentence:

I like the film "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

is intended as a question, and has absolutely no context associated with it by which to parse its real meaning? If people are throwing out sentences like that and expecting them to be understood, they deserve not to be. The answer to how to overcome this problem is not to write such sentences.

Agreed. There's no way that sentence could be misunderstood or misread as a question. It's a simple Subject-Verb-Object construction.

 

[Gryffindorian]

Posted by Trekker4747:

And, of course, when writing with a pen and paper it's nearly impossible to write in italics and while style-rules say that in this situation movie and book titles are underlined, the names of articles, chapters in a book or episode titles go in quotes so we lead back in to the possibility of confusion.

I'm not even sure what your original point is, but yes, article, chapter, and episode titles are usually in double quotes (quotation marks).

And if it'd cause a read to go through a sentence that starts as a statement and ends with a question mark even it takes a moment for the person to stop and think about what they have just read then it can lead to confusion.

Why? Because we can't ever start or write a sentence that doesn't end with a question mark or exclamation point, for that matter? I admit it's a very informal way of writing a statement, but it is common:

You just spent $900 on a gaming console?

Instead of

Did you just spend $900 on a gaming console?

So, since the episode "Who Watches the Watchers" stylistically is properly in quotes, it could be confusing (if even for a moment) if it was in a statement for two reasons.

I like the episode "Who Watches the Watchers."

1. The sentence, being a statement, ends in a period, even though there's clearly a question in it.

That is the correct way to write it. The fact that it is in quotes signifies that it's a title of something. Again, it's a simple Subject-Verb-Object construction.

I = Subject
like = Transitive Verb
episode = Object

Although the episode title is in question format, it should be pretty clear to the reader that it is the proper name or title of something.

If the episode title was properly punctuated:

I like the episode "Who Watches the Watchers?"

Now we have a sentence that is a statement, but ends with a question mark properly placed both stylistically inside the quote and with the episode title. But it may lead to some confusion for a reader who may think the original writer of the sentence just made a statement a question.

Hell, how many times on this very board do people make a thread title that's a statement but ends it with a question mark?

(1) That is also a correct way to write the sentence; (2) It is possible--and no, it's not confusing--to end the apparent declarative sentence with a question mark because the said title is in quotes; (3) As inappropriate as it, people do use question marks to end their sentence.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I do not disagree with what the rules are, just stating that in today's world they could probably use some adjustment in order to work in a modern world where we have the names of things like episode titles that have question marks in them and people talking with irony exists.

You're right of course. 100 years ago titles never had question marks in them, and nobody was ever sarcastic.