grammar rule help needed.

[JoeZhang]

You would all be in deep trouble trying to write an academic paper in the UK.

Apart from the British posters, of course.

My grammar is pretty awful but that's what research assistants and post-grads are for.

 

[scotpens]

I placed the question mark at the very end so as not to confuse the reader that that was supposed to be part of the original title such as "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

To confuse things further, although the title Who Framed Roger Rabbit should have a question mark at the end, it doesn’t.

. . . Although your original sentence should have been either:

Surely they could not have been worse than TNG's "Encounter at Farpoint"?

OR

Surely they could have been no worse than TNG's "Encounter at Farpoint"?

Yes, the sentence as originally written contains a double negative.

As for punctuation, I was taught that periods and commas always go inside quotation marks, regardless of where they should logically go: I just watched the episode “Spock Gets a Hernia.”

Quoting from this site:

And just why, you may ask, do they belong there? Well, it seems to be the result of historical accident. When type was handset (i.e., when the letters where put in place on the printing press by hand), a period or comma outside of quotation marks at the end of a sentence tended to get knocked out of position, so the printers tucked the little devils inside the quotation marks to keep them safe and out of trouble. But apparently only American printers were more attached to convenience than logic, since British printers continued to risk the misalignment of their periods and commas.

 

[Gryffindorian]

Agreed on the English standard of using punctuation marks.

 

[Tiberius]

Surely, they could not have been no worse than TNG's "Encounter at Farpoint"?

Is the above use of punctuation after the quotation marks used correctly? I've learned way back in college that the punctuation was supposed to be in the quotation, but when it comes to the example above the quotation mark ends with the title at the end of the sentence.

I placed the question mark at the very end so as not to confuse the reader that that was supposed to be part of the original title such as "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

I agree.

If the text inside the quotes is a question or statement or whatever, then the punctuation at the end of it is part of what is being quoted, and so belongs inside the quote marks.

Picard turned to Worf and asked, "Can you determine their course?"

But if the punctuation is NOT part of what is inside the quote marks, then such punctuation goes outside the quotes.

Beverly sighed. Fully half her cast was off the ship on an away mission, and the play started in ten minutes! Would she still be able to perform "Something For Breakfast"?

 

[RoJoHen]

Surely, they could not have been no worse than TNG's "Encounter at Farpoint"?

Is the above use of punctuation after the quotation marks used correctly? I've learned way back in college that the punctuation was supposed to be in the quotation, but when it comes to the example above the quotation mark ends with the title at the end of the sentence.

I placed the question mark at the very end so as not to confuse the reader that that was supposed to be part of the original title such as "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

I agree.

If the text inside the quotes is a question or statement or whatever, then the punctuation at the end of it is part of what is being quoted, and so belongs inside the quote marks.

Picard turned to Worf and asked, "Can you determine their course?"

But if the punctuation is NOT part of what is inside the quote marks, then such punctuation goes outside the quotes.

Beverly sighed. Fully half her cast was off the ship on an away mission, and the play started in ten minutes! Would she still be able to perform "Something For Breakfast"?

And really, all of this would be solved by getting rid of the quotes and simply typing the title in italics.

 

[Trekker4747]

Er no, it is not incorrect. The question mark inside the quotes is enough to conclude the sentence, you do not need a period after the quotes.

Come again? Is the above quote correct or incorrect?

In his case, he is saying the question mark is part of the title of the episode, so it goes inside the quotes, and is also sufficient to end the sentence. Like the "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" example you pointed out.

In your case, the question mark was not part of the title of the episode, so it goes outside the quotes.

But, putting it inside the quotes (and ending the sentence with it) ends the sentence as if it was a question. Which it is not, it's a statement. So how would that be conveyed to a reader?

I like the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

is not a question, it is a statement. But someone who reads that sentence, and isn't familiar with the movie and that the question mark is in the title, would read that as being a poorly phrased question. So how do you distinguish between a punctuation mark in a title and a punctuation mark in the sentence itself when the two are in conflict?

 

[Gryffindorian]

Come again? Is the above quote correct or incorrect?

In his case, he is saying the question mark is part of the title of the episode, so it goes inside the quotes, and is also sufficient to end the sentence. Like the "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" example you pointed out.

In your case, the question mark was not part of the title of the episode, so it goes outside the quotes.

But, putting it inside the quotes (and ending the sentence with it) ends the sentence as if it was a question. Which it is not, it's a statement. So how would that be conveyed to a reader?

I like the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

is not a question, it is a statement. But someone who reads that sentence, and isn't familiar with the movie and that the question mark is in the title, would read that as being a poorly phrased question. So how do you distinguish between a punctuation mark in a title and a punctuation mark in the sentence itself when the two are in conflict?

Trekker, no offense to you, but that's just the correct way it's written in American English. You don't need the period outside of the ending quotation mark. It doesn't matter if the person is familiar with the movie or not; if the specific title ends with a question mark, it goes inside the quotes.

I even agree that quotes wouldn't be necessary in this case since italics are used for proper names of books, publications, movies, or TV shows; e.g., How I Met Your Mother, The New York Times, Hamlet, Avatar, etc.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Welcome to American English. Hell, welcome to English, period!

But it is correct to always put the commas inside quotation marks. Trust me, I had to teach it like that for years.

I learned and taught it like that for years, too. However, British punctuation rules are not entirely the same as American punctuation rules. The placement of commas inside/outside quotation marks is a good example of one that differs.

Well, I've never taught in the UK (or British rules in general), so I'll have to take your word for that.

And really, all of this would be solved by getting rid of the quotes and simply typing the title in italics.

No, it's too easy that way!

 

[scotpens]

But, putting it inside the quotes (and ending the sentence with it) ends the sentence as if it was a question. Which it is not, it's a statement. So how would that be conveyed to a reader?

I like the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

is not a question, it is a statement.

As I pointed out upthread, the official title of the movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit doesn’t have a question mark. So none is needed, either inside or outside the quotes.

And really, all of this would be solved by getting rid of the quotes and simply typing the title in italics.

Which opens a whole other can of worms, namely the rules about using italics vs. quotation marks for titles.

I learned to use italics for novels, plays, motion pictures, and television series. Quotation marks for short fiction pieces, chapter titles, individual episodes of TV shows. For poems, I can’t remember what the hell I’m supposed to use.

 

[AFEK ESLCAFE W]

^^

Going by the book title, which statement written would be more proper and accurate?:


Have you ever read the book "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

or

Have you ever read the book "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"?



Going by the film title -- while not using italics but in its place using quotation marks -- which statement written would be more proper and accurate?:


Have you ever seen the film "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

or

Have you ever seen the film "Who Framed Roger Rabbit"?


(I have too much time on my hands; actually, come to think of it...I don't." )

 

[Gryffindorian]

^^

Going by the book title, which statement written would be more proper and accurate?:


Have you ever read the book "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

or

Have you ever read the book "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"?



Going by the film title -- while not using italics but in its place using quotation marks -- which statement written would be more proper and accurate?:


Have you ever seen the film "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

or

Have you ever seen the film "Who Framed Roger Rabbit"?


(I have too much time on my hands; actually, come to think of it...I don't." )

This is the correct way to write it (assuming the question mark is part of the title).

Have you ever read the book "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

 

[AFEK ESLCAFE W]

^^

Thanks.

How about the one for the film?

 

[Gryffindorian]

Well, given my previous post regarding the use of italics, I would've just written the titles in italics for both book and movie. Since you posted the titles in quotes, I used the rule associated with the quoted text ending with a question mark. So my answer would be the same (if you really insist on using double quotes."

 

[AFEK ESLCAFE W]

^^

Thanks.

 

[Pingfah]

Come again? Is the above quote correct or incorrect?

In his case, he is saying the question mark is part of the title of the episode, so it goes inside the quotes, and is also sufficient to end the sentence. Like the "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" example you pointed out.

In your case, the question mark was not part of the title of the episode, so it goes outside the quotes.

But, putting it inside the quotes (and ending the sentence with it) ends the sentence as if it was a question.

No it doesn't.

Which it is not, it's a statement. So how would that be conveyed to a reader?

I like the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

is not a question, it is a statement. But someone who reads that sentence, and isn't familiar with the movie and that the question mark is in the title, would read that as being a poorly phrased question. So how do you distinguish between a punctuation mark in a title and a punctuation mark in the sentence itself when the two are in conflict?

What can I tell you, it doesn't matter if the person is familiar with the movie if they are familiar with the English language.

You are making an incredibly simple grammatical rule into something unnecessarily complicated.

Although we should probably pick a different movie before Reindeer Wrangler/Scotpens has a heart attack.

 

[Deckerd]

As to the film, the second is obviously correct, for the reasons given above.

 

[Pingfah]

Trekker seems to be under the impression that the only way to identify a question is by a question mark at the end. I can see the point he is making, but has anyone actually ever come across a situation like that, where the sentence:

I like the film "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

is intended as a question, and has absolutely no context associated with it by which to parse its real meaning? If people are throwing out sentences like that and expecting them to be understood, they deserve not to be. The answer to how to overcome this problem is not to write such sentences.

 

[Deckerd]

Who Framed Roger Rabbit is a film very much I do not like.

 

[Pingfah]

I like the film "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"

 

[Deckerd]

unexpected this is