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Spoilers Gotham - Season 2

I thought it was taking things a bit far myself, but I'm very cautiously optimistic that maybe, just maybe, they'll follow up on this and it will be an important factor in the long-term development of Gordon...and quite likely for Bruce as well, should he find out what Gordon did at his urging.

This could be something like Superman/Zod...or its predecessor with the Byrne-era Phantom Zone villains in the comics...in that the basic idea may be to have Gordon and/or Bruce develop a code against killing only after they have some blood on their hands that they've learned from.

crookeddy said:
The writers have now clearly outlined the morality and ethics of the show: the ends justify the needs. Jim Gordon wants to end police corruption and make Gotham a better place. To do this, he has no choice but to become corrupt, and possibility make Gotham a worse place for the time being.

Gordon is now the kind of guy who will kill 10 people to save 100. If you can't watch a show with a protagonist with that mentality, maybe this show isn't for you.
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So Jim Gordon is the cop that Gotham needs, but not the cop it deserves...or something like that.... :p
 
Christopher said:
If he just covers it up and lies about it for the rest of his career, the act of lying permanently taints him and everything he does. You can atone for doing wrong, but only if you admit to the wrong.
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And yet for you, somehow Gordon lying in the Dark Knight is OK and he never admitted to doing anything wrong in that case.
 
DWF said:
Christopher said:
If he just covers it up and lies about it for the rest of his career, the act of lying permanently taints him and everything he does. You can atone for doing wrong, but only if you admit to the wrong.
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And yet for you, somehow Gordon lying in the Dark Knight is OK and he never admitted to doing anything wrong in that case.
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Well, lying isn't quite murder.
 
Just used the excuse that it's up on Netflix now to persuade my son that we could delete the last part of season one off the Tivo.

We'll never watch it...
 
Hmm, I wonder what the timeline is like there? She filed for divorce in July and now 2 months later she's pregnant. I hadn't even heard about her and Ben McKenzie were a couple.
 
To my pleasant surprise, Law and the Multiverse's James Daily has already posted an entry in response to (and extensively quoting) my question to him the other day about self-defense vs. felony murder in Jim's case. Daily bases his conclusion in New York law, since Gotham is a surrogate NYC:

http://lawandthemultiverse.com/2015/09/24/jim-gordon-and-the-felony-murder-rule/
It is true that Gordon was not the initial aggressor, but it was his decision to commit armed robbery (pointing the gun at Barker’s henchman and demanding the money). There’s the felony. But what about the murder? Alas for Gordon, the court in Walker was pretty clear about that: “while the defense of justification may be available to an underlying felony offense in a felony murder prosecution, it is never a defense to felony murder itself.”
...
Since Gordon can’t claim self-defense / justification for the underlying felony (the armed robbery), I’m afraid he’s out of luck.
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So apparently I was right. Jim can't claim his actions were justified as self-defense, so he is on the hook for felony murder.



The Old Mixer said:
This could be something like Superman/Zod...or its predecessor with the Byrne-era Phantom Zone villains in the comics...in that the basic idea may be to have Gordon and/or Bruce develop a code against killing only after they have some blood on their hands that they've learned from.
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Again, though, my issue isn't just with what he did, but with what he'll be doing for the rest of his life, namely hiding from his guilt and basing his career from this point forward on a lie. Not to mention the blackmail power Penguin now has over him. His career from now on is corrupt because of the way he preserved it, and I can't see a way back from that other than owning up to his crimes and going to prison.
 
So Gordon who wasn't a cop at the robbed a criminal of some money and in the act of escaping killed said criminal. In some people's eyes he might deserve a metal, lone his job back. And of course in removing Loeb that makes Gordon that much closer to becoming Commishioner himself.
 
Christopher, once again, Jim was unarmed when he entered the office and requested money owed, acting as the designated agent of the person owed. While Jim had reason to suspect, he had no evidence that the money had any connection to any criminal act (go back and carefully listen to what Penguin said to Jim.) His actions to that point were perfectly legal.

A gun was pulled on Jim and his life threatened. Taking the gun and any aggressive actions after was self-defence.

Taking the money that was owed may or may not be theft. That is not determined. In my jurisdiction this would be seen as a civil matter, not a criminal matter. Defending himself against a clear assault and a clear threat against his life was not criminal.

Your case is full of holes. I am not in the NY jurisdiction but I am more than familiar with case law. Good luck prosecuting.

The fact that some blogger with no legal experience (that I can find) is taking the situation that you presented at your word doesn't mean that you are right. It means one person has been persuaded by your one-sided presentation.

There are certainly things in Jim's actions that are questionable, and this seems to be intended by the writers. They are portraying Jim as someone pushed into a corner and forced to sacrifice some of his beliefs and integrity, and we get to actually witness his feelings about it. I'm sorry you cannot see the story there. I am sorry that you cannot see the obvious fact that the Jim Gordon that becomes commissioner and ignores, tolerates, and supports the actions of a masked vigilante must at some point confront his own lack of power to fix everything single handed without ever crossing a legal line.
 
I just watched my DVR'ing of it. I thought it was an interesting episode, though I'm not sure how to feel about having Gordon kill someone. As Christopher says, that's "out of character" for Gordon who is supposed to be an incorruptible cop. But I wait to see where the show goes with this, maybe there's a way they have to justify it.

I'm surprised his name wasn't one of the things Bruce first tried with the keypad. Inside the chamber the monitors also looked "out of time" for a series filled with flip-phones, cars from the 70s and 80s, and large, boxy, 15" monitors on the computers.

But, what I don't get is why Bruce went straight for the explosives to open the vault? He and Alfred weren't a couple of bank-robbers pressed for time to open the vault, they had all of the time in the world!

Aren't there professional safe-cracking companies they could contact? Okay, they don't trust anyone in Gotham, so call someone from Metropolis or any other city in the world? Wayne's a billionaire he can afford to fly in a world-class safe-cracker from Dubai if he wants to.

But, okay, they don't want anyone to know about the safe no matter how detached from Gotham's corruption they may seem. Fine. So they jump right to explosives? It's still a vault-door made of steel, right? Doesn't steel still cut and melt? Couldn't go for a blow-torch and diamond-bladed radial saw first? Went straight for the ANFO?

Come on, Bruce!

As long as there is Morena Baccarin in a nighty, I'll keep watching.
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I completely lost track of everything happening in that scene because of that nightie.
 
The only reason to use the explosives to get into the room was because they wanted an excuse for a big explosion.
 
Well, it does sort of provide continuity with the Dark Knight movies. Now we know why they had to shore up the foundations in the southwest corner of the mansion. Bruce used too much explosive as a kid. :techman:
 
2x02...

The guy does a good Heath Ledger with a touch of Jack.

And is there any going back for Barbara so that she could become Barbara Gordon?
 
A Gotham license plate? So Gotham is a state as well a city? Alfred threatening to kill Fox. And I halfway expected to to hear the words 'Have you ever danced with the devil by the pale mooonlight?'.
 
DWF said:
A Gotham license plate? So Gotham is a state as well a city?
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It's been portrayed as such before. I think we saw Gotham State licence plates in B:TAS, and I think there was a mention or two of Gotham as a state in the '66 show. (After all, Gotham there was very much a New York surrogate, and New York City and State share a name.) And didn't Dick Grayson go to Gotham State University in the comics and B:TAS?
 
^Maybe Gotham State was in B:TAS, then.

I only caught the last minute of this week's episode, while waiting for Minority Report to start. But I guess any lingering ambiguity about Jerome being the Joker is gone now, huh?
 
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